Breivik's Verdict: Sane.

[EK WAFFLR]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9496330/Anders-Breivik-verdict-live.html


The comments are horrormirthy retarded.
https://www.facebook.com/TELEGRAPH.CO.UK/posts/264870996965753

[Faust]

That's why the populance don't pass the verdict.
I also really hate people judging and complaining about Norway's legal system as if they had more then a passing familiarity with it.

[Cain]

There is no way anyone could argue Breivik was insane with a straight face.  I can see two possible motivations why someone would say it:

a) his crime seemed so heinous that only an insane person could do it (also known as the "I sleeped through history class" defence).

b) his crime seemed so heinous, that dumping in him in the mental health system for all eternity and discrediting him seemed preferable to letting him out after 21 years (the "ends justifies the means" defence).

In some ways, I hope it was b), because there is no good reason for a).

Also, keeping him in prison might be useful, because now Oslo is determined to disrupt far-right terrorism, and monitoring his visitors, calls and letters may well reveal some interesting connections.  The authorities in Norway are now taking a great interest in the counterjihad movement, the anti-Islamist organizations etc.  By comparison, the EDL in the UK, despite being an almost entirely criminal organization from the top down (and, let us not forget, quite chummy with Breivik) is still not a proscribed group, and the far-right are consistently ranked lower than environmental terrorists in terms of threat potential.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

So, Waffles, I heard they are recommending a minimum sentence of 10 years... What do you reckon the actual sentence will be?

[EK WAFFLR]

So, Waffles, I heard they are recommending a minimum sentence of 10 years... What do you reckon the actual sentence will be?

He's been sentenced to 21 years and detention. In theory this means he might get out after 10 years, but in practise, he might never be set free.

The "detention part" is similar to "At her majesty's pleasure" and is given in situations where the risk of reoffense is very high. The risk of letting the prisoner out will be evaluated every 5 years, and can mean that the prisoner will remain in prison for the rest of his life (or foreseeable future in any case).

[EK WAFFLR]

There is no way anyone could argue Breivik was insane with a straight face.  I can see two possible motivations why someone would say it:

a) his crime seemed so heinous that only an insane person could do it (also known as the "I sleeped through history class" defence).

b) his crime seemed so heinous, that dumping in him in the mental health system for all eternity and discrediting him seemed preferable to letting him out after 21 years (the "ends justifies the means" defence).

In some ways, I hope it was b), because there is no good reason for a).

Also, keeping him in prison might be useful, because now Oslo is determined to disrupt far-right terrorism, and monitoring his visitors, calls and letters may well reveal some interesting connections.  The authorities in Norway are now taking a great interest in the counterjihad movement, the anti-Islamist organizations etc.  By comparison, the EDL in the UK, despite being an almost entirely criminal organization from the top down (and, let us not forget, quite chummy with Breivik) is still not a proscribed group, and the far-right are consistently ranked lower than environmental terrorists in terms of threat potential.

The far right-movements in Norway has gotten a boost in numbers since Breivik, but the PST (The Police Security Service, somewhat comparable to MI5) has them all under surveillance.

[Cain]

So it claims.  I doubt it.  The far-right invented "lone wolf" terrorism, for starters.  And even if it had them all under surveillance, that doesn't mean there wont be more attacks.  Mohammed Atta was on a pre-9/11 terrorism watchlist.  Mohammed Sidique Khan was under surveillance from MI5.  And the National Socialist Underground carried out a 13 year murder campaign while the BfV not only watched, but destroyed the files they had on them when the group's existence was revealed.

However, the less tradecraft savvy lone wolves will probably try to contact their hero at some point, and scrutinizing such contacts may give them a pool of potential suspects in future cases.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Just for the record, can anyone explain to me exactly what sane/insane is, in legal terms?

[Cain]

Essentially, the defendant has to not be responsible for their actions due to mental incapacity, in particular they must have diminished responsibility that either meant they did not understand the action they were undertaking or the consequences of the action.

For instance, someone who kills children in the belief they are actually rabbits, is not guilty by reason of insanity, as they are clearly psychotic, are medically proven to be psychotic and cannot be held liable for their actions.

Conversely, the classic psychosexual serial killer, while still mentally ill in a very real sense, understands their actions and the result of them, and does them anyway.  They know they are killing real, living people.  They know they are not defending themselves (as some paranoid schizophrenics believe, when they attack someone) and they know the consequences of their actions will result in a dead person, unlike the psychotic.  Thus, they are not legally insane.

Breivik's manifesto and his lucid testimony in court, as well as the expertly planned terrorist attack clearly show him to be sane.  Not only that, his logic and internal worldview are pretty coherent, despite the lack of reality in his overal ideology (if we're judging people to be insane by reason of ideology or religion that does not line up with reality, most of the world would be in prison, after all).  To his mind, while Muslims were the primary threat, they were enabled by collaborators within Norway - the Norwegian Labour Party.  Thus striking against the ruling party by killing its youth wing would discourage parents to let their children go on such trips, discourage children from joining the party and hopefully act as a wake-up call and blueprint for other patriots to undermine the Labour Party's control of Norwegian politics, restoring individuals or groups who would want to purify Norway of the Islamic threat.

By planting a car bomb in Oslo, he not only distracted the Norwegian police and security services, drawing their attention to the capital city, he also created the perfect reason for his own appearance on Utoya.  I am sure that normally, a strange man wandering a summer camp for teenagers would be a cause for concern.  But dressed as a police officer, and with a recent bombing in Oslo directed against the ruling political party, well... it would make perfect sense for a heavily armed officer to be at the camp.

That kind of logical, forward planning simply isn't something someone who is legally insane can plan out. 

[P3nT4gR4m]

(if we're judging people to be insane by reason of ideology or religion that does not line up with reality, most of the world would be in prison, after all)

Cheers! The part I've quoted is what I was thinking the insanity plea meant but you just cleared that up for me.

[Verbal Mike]

Is it clear at this point where his main ideological inspiration comes from?

[Cain]

Is it clear at this point where his main ideological inspiration comes from?

Lunatics on the internet.

Seriously.  If you read his manifesto, it's pretty clear he developed his views by reading online Islamophobic groups, notably the likes of Pamela Geller (aka "Atlasshrugged2000"), the Gates of Vienna, Fjordman, Robert Spencer, the European far-right such as the BNP, EDL, the Swedish Democrats, Vlaams Belang etc.  Oh, and a smattering of neo-Templar groups. 

He also claims contact with Serbian mercenaries in Liberia, which cannot be proven but does fit with his own travel and what was going on in Liberia at the time.  Of course, Serbian paramilitaries share the kind of disdain that Breivik has for Muslims.

[Junkenstein]

Given the range and distribution of these groups is this likely to lead to further internet checks and monitoring. The event was certaintly tragic enough to lead to an ill formed law getting drafted shortly. There's still all the various SOPA/PIPA/ETC variants coming up in new guises, I'm feeling cynical enough to suspect a backhander in here somehow eventually.

[Cain]

Breivik was given a minimum 21 year sentence, and also will not be released after that if he is considered a threat to the public still.

So he has effective life imprisonment, and everyone whining on Facebook is proven an idiot, yet again.