Wage Slavery

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

 

That whole blog is both informative and terrifying.

Luckily for FreeIrishWoman she has a book deal now.

[Dildo Argentino]

THREAD ORVER.

no, not yet

[LMNO]

THREAD ORVER.

no, not yet

I'm pretty sure that translates to:

"The content part of this thread, for whatever it's worth, is now over.  From this point forward will be screeching, stick-poking, shit-flinging, and butthurt."

[Ayotollah of Ass]

Yes, and the fact that people are choosing to explore, in-depth, whether there aren't relevant differences between translation services and porn (there are, obviously) rather than laying out a clear and concise argument about what qualities make porn exploitative to the point that there is moral obligation on the part of the consumer/viewer to not support it, speaks volumes.

That's like a Snide Comment^TM, right? But actually, the compare-and-contrast job I am trying to do here is, in my irritatingly divergent and roundabout manner, an attempt at figuring out what gives the sex industry it's (you have to admit, I think, do you?) very particular flavour of nasty. I think some of the ingredients are sex-related, but others are not, and are shared by some (but not all) other types of work.

We were working at cross-purposes. My purpose was to get people to identify their line of exploitation. Some people were saying that all porn is exploitative. Some were saying some porn was ok, but without drawing clear lines. Some were saying that their uncertainty about the exploitation was part of the problem. I also think that some people's baggage about sex was a factor, which is this nebulous background thing that is there, just as there is this intuition that the porn industry is nasty.

And then, there is also the question of once we define an unacceptable level of exploitation and what level of certainty we have about it, what is the moral obligation of the consumer/viewer of porn? If a woman makes $500 doing a 2 hour masturbation set? Is that bad? How about if she is Eastern European? Doing it to feed her family? What if it is a cam show - for her website? On some other website? On and on and on. How much information is necessary?

But no one wanted to go this route, into specifics, because that's the reality, and despite LMNO's comments to the contrary below, this discussion, thus far, has been plagued by sweeping generalities and mistaking the map for the territory. And, it's also clear why. Ultimately, it's personal where you draw these lines, and it is hard to really lay down any kind of criteria unless you are just totally against it. It's the whole problem with porn in general, you know it when you see it. And while the totally against it argument is a clean argument, it's one that denies a lot of the realities of why porn exists in the first place. It's like abstinence education. It doesn't work.

I thought your efforts were a bit off-topic of the OP, and while there was general agreement this was the case, people focused on your arguments. I'm starting to think some of the reason for that might have something to do with my selecting a variant of asshole as my forum handle.

Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.

However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation.  You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment for now.  This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way.  If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.

Not to nitpick, but I doubt we have any real understanding of reality of the sex work situation. We all may have a vague feeling of badwrong, but it is also hard to figure out whether that's the same feeling that prevented me from seriously considering offering up fucking my ass for dollars before.

And with that, I've gone through about half this thread and the last few comments before this post that just got added, and I guess I'm just going to say I'm not interested in reading any further.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

[LMNO]

I think I see what AA is talking about, and there is some truth to it.  Yes, a solo masturbation set on a live feed doesn't feel "as bad" as an anal gangbang "non-con" scene.  So there is a line, but it's hard to define.

[Ayotollah of Ass]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

Having had contact with the local porn industry, I can say with 169% certainty that is is nothing short of dehumanizing.

Can't speak about anywhere else, but I suspect it's the same.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

THREAD ORVER.

no, not yet

I'm pretty sure that translates to:

"The content part of this thread, for whatever it's worth, is now over.  From this point forward will be screeching, stick-poking, shit-flinging, and butthurt."

LMNO, you speak excellent Roger.

Fact:  No new arguments have been brought up.  Thread is not about wage slavery, it's about pron/prostitute apologism. 

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

Having had contact with the local porn industry, I can say with 169% certainty that is is nothing short of dehumanizing.

Can't speak about anywhere else, but I suspect it's the same.

Roger, I think the Ayatollah is chasing unicorns, personally.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

Having had contact with the local porn industry, I can say with 169% certainty that is is nothing short of dehumanizing.

Can't speak about anywhere else, but I suspect it's the same.

Roger, I think the Ayatollah is chasing unicorns, personally.

Dunno.  All I can say is what I DO know, which is to say that the films made in the Tucson area are just what you'd expect, and the horrors behind the scenes are also just what you'd expect.

What I DON'T know is whether this is a Tucson thing or a porn thing.

And there are no happy prostitutes.  Just saying.

[Verbal Mike]

Luckily for FreeIrishWoman she has a book deal now.

THE POOR WOMAN'S ESCAPED ONE FORM OF PROSTITUTION ONLY TO LAND IN ANOTHER!!!

[Verbal Mike]

AA, something I think you might just be missing here is the odd focus on reality here on PDCOM. Unlike discussions on this kind if topic in most places, the focus here seems to me first and foremost – especially in this discussion – to lie in understanding reality. Not in making normative statements (i.e. "x is badwrong") or imaginary policy concepts (i.e. "x should be banned") and when people do make normative statements, the culture here seems to, perhaps unusually, not add an implication of policy, public or otherwise. In other words, the discussion of porn, to me and to many of the others, I suspect, is not about what should be done, but about how things are. Not about drawing sharp lines that can be used in some imaginary world in which we dictate policy, not even sharp lines for personal policy – since the conclusion on personal policy is typically "think for yourself, schmuck." I think this community sees itself more as a way to thoroughly inform oneself, and to hash out ideas, but emphatically not a way to hash out guidelines for life, personal or public.

I see that you understand this to a degree, I just feel your line of argumentation assumes an implication that is not there. It's a valid pursuit to try to figure out where one should draw the line, and you raise interesting thoughts and questions. I just think you're missing something fundamental about how this community approaches this kind of discussion, or at least the discussion this thread branched off from. When another thread is started with a clear mission statement, that'll be a different situation, and might possibly generate less animosity, at least in a perfect world where this thread never happened so people aren't predisposed to that animosity.

I'm very open to the possibility that I'm speaking out of my anus here, BTW.

VERB,
Amateur Interweb anthropologist

[Freeky]

Luckily for FreeIrishWoman she has a book deal now.

THE POOR WOMAN'S ESCAPED ONE FORM OF PROSTITUTION ONLY TO LAND IN ANOTHER!!!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree, for the most part.

I think porn and prostitution is degrading and wrong, but I don't they should be illegal for the same reason I don't think pot smoking should be illegal...That is to say, I don't get to tell you what to do.

(Note that the above is not an invitation to turn this into drug thread #3459.  It was just a comparison.  So shut up.)