Wage Slavery

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.

Porn is part of the sex industry.

Let me quote:

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...

So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...

I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.

[Ayotollah of Ass]

But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.

Two things:

1.  Watch your butthurt levels, sir.  It's hard to say, but it looks like you're getting into Chris Brown territory, there.

2.  The codes are all for stupid Ovaltine commercials anyway.

Should I know who Chris Brown is? Is that another life experience I'm missing?

[Phox]

 

Okay,since you need your hand held through this: Professional sex workers work in the sex industry. Porn stars, strippers, prostitutes, phone sex workers, etc. People who post naked pictures of videos on the internet=/= professional sex workers.

Is it difficult for you to divorce the word "porn" from meaning "random naked pictures" and apply it in context to "commercially produced, for-profit, often exploitative erotic media"? 

[Ayotollah of Ass]

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.

Porn is part of the sex industry.

Let me quote:

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...

So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...

I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.

I can too, except for the fact that exhibitionism looks, smells and tastes like porn. And one of the problems raised previously is that the sex industry makes porn that looks like exhibitionism. So, nice IDEALISTIC distinction, but not one that works in REALITY everyone here cares about.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.

So wait, what was your point?

So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.

I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.

Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.

And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.

I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.

[Kai]

Okay,since you need your hand held through this: Professional sex workers work in the sex industry. Porn stars, strippers, prostitutes, phone sex workers, etc. People who post naked pictures of videos on the internet=/= professional sex workers.

Is it difficult for you to divorce the word "porn" from meaning "random naked pictures" and apply it in context to "commercially produced, for-profit, often exploitative erotic media"?

Once again, you can be counted on to say exactly what I'm thinking.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.

Porn is part of the sex industry.

Let me quote:

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...

So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...

Why are you quoting two different people as if one is responsible for the posts of the other?  We're not interchangeable.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here, guys, let's get this semantic nonsense cleared up:

Definition of PORNOGRAPHY
1: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2: material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3: the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography

I write pornography. I take pornographic pictures. I am, however, not a purveyor of pornography nor a participant in the porn industry.

[Ayotollah of Ass]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.

So wait, what was your point?

So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.

I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.

Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.

And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.

I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.

I actually never suggested people read a blog to get perspective on it. I was critical of that point. But, you are right that I shouldn't be dismissive, but from my view, I'm giving a little of what you are giving me.

As was pointed out, it is questionable whether there really is something different going on here, and I have proceeded as if there isn't. Maybe I'm wrong, yet again.

I'll read the whole OP thread again. I don't have time at the moment, but in the next few days. I had read the first few pages and than continued reading the thread a few days later, so maybe it all become a jumbled mess in my mind. If I missed as badly as you say, I'll be embarrassed and apologize. Fair enough?   

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Am I right in saying that, in accordance with what I picked up from the context of posts from the "Porn Princess" thread and earlier in this thread, those here who are critical of "porn" are referring specifically to the industry which produces sexual content for profit, and not, say, to dirty emails Roger might write to his wife or to naughty cell phone pics Phox might send to a girl or boyfriend, even though those are also, technically, pornographic?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.

Porn is part of the sex industry.

Let me quote:

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...

So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...

I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.

I can too, except for the fact that exhibitionism looks, smells and tastes like porn. And one of the problems raised previously is that the sex industry makes porn that looks like exhibitionism. So, nice IDEALISTIC distinction, but not one that works in REALITY everyone here cares about.

Well, then, it seems that we have some definitions to hammer out.

And there is in fact a real distinction.  Exhibitionists are doing it to get their kink on.  Porn professionals do it because they need a paycheck.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Am I right in saying that, in accordance with what I picked up from the context of posts from the "Porn Princess" thread and earlier in this thread, those here who are critical of "porn" are referring specifically to the industry which produces sexual content for profit, and not, say, to dirty emails Roger might write to his wife or to naughty cell phone pics Phox might send to a girl or boyfriend, even though those are also, technically, pornographic?

That is what I'm talking about.

And the emails weren't that dirty, no matter what those FBI bastards say.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.

So wait, what was your point?

So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.

I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.

Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.

And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.

I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.

I actually never suggested people read a blog to get perspective on it. I was critical of that point. But, you are right that I shouldn't be dismissive, but from my view, I'm giving a little of what you are giving me.

You didn't? What did you mean when you said the bolded, below?

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

I replied to the bolded by saying that I don't really feel I need to read someone else's blog, since that was my own experience and it, naturally, helps inform my perspective.

As was pointed out, it is questionable whether there really is something different going on here, and I have proceeded as if there isn't. Maybe I'm wrong, yet again.

I'll read the whole OP thread again. I don't have time at the moment, but in the next few days. I had read the first few pages and than continued reading the thread a few days later, so maybe it all become a jumbled mess in my mind. If I missed as badly as you say, I'll be embarrassed and apologize. Fair enough?

Sure. But when I suggested you do this before, in the other thread, while it was still fairly manageably small, you got snarky on me, so I'm skeptical now.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, Ayatollah, you seem to be arguing a definition that involves "obscenity" standards.  While this is a worthy subject of debate, it isn't the actual topic here.  What we've been discussing is the exploitive nature of the sex industry.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.

Porn is part of the sex industry.

Let me quote:

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...

So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...

I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.

I can too, except for the fact that exhibitionism looks, smells and tastes like porn. And one of the problems raised previously is that the sex industry makes porn that looks like exhibitionism. So, nice IDEALISTIC distinction, but not one that works in REALITY everyone here cares about.

Well, then, it seems that we have some definitions to hammer out.

And there is in fact a real distinction.  Exhibitionists are doing it to get their kink on.  Porn professionals do it because they need a paycheck.

Being probably one of the most anti-sex-industry spag here, I have no problem with those getting their exhibitionist kink on AT ALL.  Being against the sex industry does not equal sex negative prude, or a desire to censor.

I have also written porn stories too, for the kinky lulz... isn't enough temperature play erotic fiction imho, so I wrote my own.