Spot the Hilarity

[Doktor Howl]

Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.

Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.

What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?

What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?

Oh, they're guilty as sin.  They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively.  But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition.  Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.

They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.

People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.

I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.

Sure.  We are shouting past each other, here.

What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way.  The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".

And they're damn effective.  In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).

So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public.  Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.

Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.

[Left]

Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.

Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.

What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?

What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?

Oh, they're guilty as sin.  They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively.  But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition.  Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.

They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.

People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.

I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.

Exactly. 
You could blame them more for being dupes, but EVERYTHING is geared towards duping them.
The rich people have their own brain worm: "I earned this, I deserve this."
...They deserve it in the same way a tick deserves blood.

[McGrupp]

In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!

Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...

Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?

Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?

Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?

Who calls bank reform "communism"?

(fun fact:  http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)

You have to remember that every single one of those examples was backed by massively funded PR campaigns to influence public opinion, and advertising works. Even on smart people. Especially when they don't know it's advertising, but even when they do.

That advertising sticks though. Part of the value of massive brands is in the Awareness of the product to the general populace. It's embeded and generational as well I would guess to a large degree. Parents building positive associations at young ages (Fast food=treat) with certain brands will probably be passed on. I'd guess this could apply negatively as well, but those cases are much rarer.

I think what I'm getting at is there seems to be a large chunk of people who will not alter their opinions unless seriously shocking evidence is presented to them. In these instances (Twin towers=Islam bad for example) or any of those listed in the polls, these were hot topic news stories for some reason or other. Anything which gives an "unsafe" vibe automatically sets a lot of people into a very conservative mindset. A scared monkey seems easier to control and shape the opinions of than a calm, thinking monkey.

I would suggest a lot more people are actually much more conservative than they can comfortably admit to themselves which is why you get shit like this happening all the time. Look at Texas. Wasn't there some vote recently that would fuck over at least 50% of the people living there? Probably a bad example, but if that was up at a federal level again now, would you not be worried?

If it was open to some kind of mass vote where everyone gets a say on it, would you not be terrified?

Seeing what we've collectively done to ourselves is enough to almost question democracy (3 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner). What I'd rather have in its place, I got no clue. Even an Irkan system where the tallest person on the planet is put in charge of everything seems like it might be better. Although we would totally find a way to fuck that up too.

I think there is plenty of blame to go around both with the haves and the have nots. However I do think that having a nation of people who work more hours than medieval serfs plays a role too. A lot of folks are just so damn happy to get off work and have a cigarette that they don't bring themselves to look too deeply at their beliefs.

And when they do get angry enough they look for a route of attack from a preapproved list. One of which is voting folks out of office.

Also you guys type really really fast. I'm not sure if this is topical. Long story short: Its all of our faults but some a lot more than others.

[Doktor Howl]

Seeing what we've collectively done to ourselves is enough to almost question democracy (3 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner). What I'd rather have in its place, I got no clue. Even an Irkan system where the tallest person on the planet is put in charge of everything seems like it might be better. Although we would totally find a way to fuck that up too.

Of course we would.  It's an "easy answer", which is basically the same shit the extreme right pushes.

[Doktor Howl]

Oh, and for those of you in California, stop paying attention to your imploding economy, and worry about this shit:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/23/19643715-prop-8-backers-refuse-to-give-up

This is another prong of the attack.  Pick an unpopular sector of the public, and shit all over them, grunting and straining loud enough that everyone talks about THAT, and not what's being done to them.

In this particular case, screech about how prop 8 is still valid (read the article for a new definition of circular reasoning), to revive a dead argument against Gays, so that people get polarized by that issue.

[Doktor Howl]

Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.

Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.

What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?

What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?

Oh, they're guilty as sin.  They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively.  But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition.  Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.

They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.

People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.

I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.

Sure.  We are shouting past each other, here.

What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way.  The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".

And they're damn effective.  In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).

So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public.  Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.

Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.

So glad I bothered.

[Doktor Howl]

You know what?  Fuck this noise.  I'm out.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.

Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.

What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?

What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?

Oh, they're guilty as sin.  They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively.  But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition.  Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.

They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.

People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.

I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.

Sure.  We are shouting past each other, here.

What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way.  The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".

And they're damn effective.  In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).

So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public.  Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.

Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.

I agree with you here.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.

Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.

What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?

What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?

Oh, they're guilty as sin.  They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively.  But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition.  Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.

They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.

People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.

I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.

Sure.  We are shouting past each other, here.

What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way.  The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".

And they're damn effective.  In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).

So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public.  Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.

Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.

So glad I bothered.

You know what?  Fuck this noise.  I'm out.

[Left]

You know what?  Fuck this noise.  I'm out.

I don't think anyone's fundamentally disagreeing with you, Dok.

...Something I've noticed: 
Assigning blame isn't fixing the problem. In fact, it's  counterproductive a lot of the time.
They sold it.  We collectively bought it.
That's not fixing it.

Assigning blame works for making sure it doesn't happen again...sometimes.

[Doktor Howl]

It wasn't disagreement.

It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements.  Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim.  Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.

And when I had done, it was ignored.  You can imagine my frustration.

[Doktor Howl]

In any case, we can either compete to see who is the most socially progressive ape, or we can try to figure out the exact mechanism by which intelligent people are convinced to accept this sort of shit.

I mean, the basic psychology isn't a mystery.  The means of delivery is right there.  We just have to stop screeching and posturing and look.

[Left]

It wasn't disagreement.

It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements.  Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim.  Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.

And when I had done, it was ignored.  You can imagine my frustration.

Beg your pardon.

I have a partial answer, though: for a critical mass of people, TV constantly stimulates greed...or more specifically, wanting.  Selfish wanting.
Those commercials aren't just the noise you put up with, oh no.

...Check this out.
I'm always finding good shit in the trash.
In fact I've not been dumpster-diving, because I currently just have enough shit.
People throw away good, useable items all the time.

...it's because they have been taught via every commercial they have ever seen or heard "Happiness comes in the form of stuff."
...So they keep buying stuff.
And then throwing it out, because it didn't actually make them happy.
Does that sound correct?

All these commercials stimulate, constantly, selfishness and greed.
The thing is, indulging in selfishness and greed really only makes full sociopaths happy.
The rest of us crave connection, not stuff.
We keep trying and failing to jam stuff into the hole left by our lack of connection.

That's part of it.
I'll think about more of it when I get back, I have to go get the Discord from the shop.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

...Something I've noticed: 
Assigning blame isn't fixing the problem. In fact, it's  counterproductive a lot of the time.
They sold it.  We collectively bought it.
That's not fixing it.

Assigning blame works for making sure it doesn't happen again...sometimes.

They stole our houses, our schools, and our privacy, but I'm sure we can fix it as long as we don't hold them accountable.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

It wasn't disagreement.

It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements.  Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim.  Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.

And when I had done, it was ignored.  You can imagine my frustration.

It wasn't ignored. I have other obligations and can't respond as quickly as I'd like to.

I do appreciate your persistence in making yourself clear.

And it did appear that you and Junkenstein were blaming the victim. I still don't know where he's coming from on this, but I'm glad you took the time to put it in a way that I can understand.