Thoughts on intelligence, narcissism/low self-esteem and Dunning-Krueger

[Nephew Twiddleton]

So, we're all smart people. Even when we're dumb it's really just a lapse in some area or another.

And I've been posting in Open Bar lately about friends on Facebook who say dumb things. And at least with one of them (they were two separate people), I admitted that the person in question just wasn't that bright and my belligerence is, in retrospect, expecting more of them than they are capable of. They can't go beyond a surface understanding.

Now, Nigel pointed out to me the fruitlessness of that, since the person and I were on different intellectual levels, and it just really wasn't worth either of our time to come to an understanding. Or at least not worth any of my time, on the grounds that the stupid was pretty damn stupid.

On the flip side of this, I help one of my fleetmates on Star Trek Online with her school work. She's also a 30 something in college, a little older than me, but everytime I help her, she has to point out to me or our fleetmates that I am intelligent. This makes me a little uncomfortable for reasons I can't exactly put my finger on. Matter of fact, I get uncomfortable when anyone of any intelligence level other than noticeably higher than my own describes me as intelligent. I had another thought to work Dunning-Krueger into here but I lost it. It might come up again through convo.

So, I guess, what's up with that?

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I'm too slow to answer this tonight, but I'm thinking things along the lines of "when you're a kid being smart is the Best Thing You Can Do, and then you grow up and realize that being smart doesn't help all that much, and being creative or diligent or belligerent are equally valid paths to success, and being smart maybe isn't even a path to success on its own at all, so it stops seeming important."

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm too slow to answer this tonight, but I'm thinking things along the lines of "when you're a kid being smart is the Best Thing You Can Do, and then you grow up and realize that being smart doesn't help all that much, and being creative or diligent or belligerent are equally valid paths to success, and being smart maybe isn't even a path to success on its own at all, so it stops seeming important."

My own thoughts on it are late night and vague. It really only came to mind because I was helping my fleetmate earlier today, and I realized that compliments make me uncomfortable depending on the source. Not because they aren't appreciated. I like being complimented. It's just that sometimes....    ???

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Is it any kind of compliment, or just compliments on your intelligence?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Is it any kind of compliment, or just compliments on your intelligence?

Mostly on my intelligence. I do get embarrassed when Villager compliments me in front of others, but not in private settings. I know I'm not ugly but at the same time, I don't figure that I look anything other than average.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

By contrast, if someone compliments me on my music, I am not embarrassed. I get an ego boost if others like it, but the important part is that I like it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I guess what bugs me about it is that i feel its an overestimation. Im smart but not so smart that i feel that it warrants being pointed out. Its kinda like you demonstrate an ability to proofread or whip out a bit of trivia here or there and people start to think youre smarter than you are even though really all it means is that you paid attention in english class and have a decent memory.

[LMNO]

Just a thought, haven't given it much examination:

"Music" is a specialized ability, not everyone is supposed to be able to do it.

"Intelligence" is something (mostly) everyone aspires for.

So to be good at music is to have talent in something most people can't compare themselves to.

But to be smarter is to be smarter than them.  So your inclination is to demurre, self-depreciate, and otherwise de-emphasize that difference.

[Reginald Ret]

Maybe you don't like being called intelligent because that is a label you will have to live up to. Another weight on your shoulders, when really, live is hard enough already without always having to seem smart.
The same reason why it is a bad idea to call children smart because it refocusses their attention to retaining the title of 'smart kid' instead of actually learning stuff. Because learning requires making mistakes, but staying smart requires you to make less mistakes than other people.

[trippinprincezz13]

I think LMNO's got a good point with respect to specialized ability vs. coming off as superior.

Regret's idea about it being another expectation to have to live up to is a good one I hadn't considered previously.

Personally (for me) I think it's a combination of self-esteem and I bit of revulsion at the feeling of "I'm better than you". Middle school and high school I was picked on a lot for being smart/liking to read/etc. - though I'm sure it was just one in a list of many since it was also by people at least as smart as I was and taking the same level courses in HS. Although not in all areas, learning new things comes pretty easily to me and/or I can pick up on new things fairly quick. Yes, I did have to study to do well, and I certainly don't master every new things that comes my way, but I still feel a bit of embarrassment/guilt (?) for receiving praise for something that comes naturally for me and can be really difficult for others. So compliments about that make me cringe a bit. So then, when I know the answer to something (or know how something somethings, etc.) I might hesitate to answer, to see if someone else can come up with it first. A practice I've been implementing since school. That maybe sounds a bit awful, but I don't want to be the smartest guy in the room....

I also worry a bit that there is real or perceived jealousy from the people speaking those compliments or those around. I get a lot of compliments on my cooking and in one instance, apparently my boyfriend's brother had been talking to his girlfriend about how good something I made was. She brought it up next time we all hung out and asked me for the recipe and made a few points about how GOOD it was and how much he LOVED it. Sincerity in there? Yes, but I also get the sense that she was a bit hurt he wasn't gushing about HER food. And I try to explain that for a lot of things, I follow a recipe and expand upon it as I see appropriate - but I'm no master chef, just good at following directions.

TBH, the expectation thing works itself in there too - I know I'm smart on many things, but I certainly don't know EVERYTHING! I know there are a lot of people smarter than me. And even if it shouldn't, failing to live up to people's expectations (real or perceived) causes me much anxiety.

Of course, your experiences may vary.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

These are all good points.

LMNO- I think you're right, at least in my comfort being complimented elsewhere being due to specialization rather than generalization.

Regret- I also get the expectation, and that certainly applies some of the time. If a person keeps coming to me to explain something to them, what happens when I don't know? Not that I'm afraid that the person will think me suddenly less intelligent, but rather, it might be a waste of both of our times to come to me first. I might not be able to explain what your professor is trying to say, because I've never taken that course, nor ever intend to. I can try to unravel what it's saying from a "this is what the language of this paragraph means" position, but I have no reference point to make sense of it in context of the subject. Maybe there's some jargon in there that I don't know about. Maybe a related concept that I'm not reading in the paragraph sheds more light on it.

Trippin- I can see the trying to avoid envy aspect too.

The other thing that I thought just now is that intelligence is also a fairly broad term. Just because I'm good at one thing (written English, if I feel like putting the extra thought into being meticulous about it) doesn't mean I have any natural aptitude in other areas, such as math (this was actually the case in high school. I wasn't able to make much sense out of much beyond basic algebra until I was 18, and I still don't consider a particularly strong area of mine.). I guess that also relates to expectation.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

One angle I see is that smart is something that you just are or are not, whereas something like making good music you know is a skill that you've worked hard at. It's like being complimented on your eye color as opposed to your clothing (from a vanity standpoint). There's fuckall you can do about being smart (a lot you can do about being educated, but that's a different thing entirely), so getting complimented for it is weird.

If I keep talking too much longer this is going to get into compliments on appearance territory, and I think that's a little off from the OP but the underlying current of discomfort is very similar for me.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

One angle I see is that smart is something that you just are or are not, whereas something like making good music you know is a skill that you've worked hard at. It's like being complimented on your eye color as opposed to your clothing (from a vanity standpoint). There's fuckall you can do about being smart (a lot you can do about being educated, but that's a different thing entirely), so getting complimented for it is weird.

If I keep talking too much longer this is going to get into compliments on appearance territory, and I think that's a little off from the OP but the underlying current of discomfort is very similar for me.

I can see that. Your physical appearance is merely an expression of your genes. My parents were smart, so I'm smart. If it's not something you actually have control over, it's not something that you've achieved, it's something that was given to you.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Though, I gotta admit, I do like it when people compliment my eyes. Probably because I was pretty sensitive for many years about going bald so young. Which are both also things beyond my control.

[P3nT4gR4m]

When I was a kid "brainy" was a put down. I was smart enough to play dumb. Did it so well I even started believing it after a while. Even to this day, someone makes a big song and dance about how smart I am, my immediate reflex is "busted"