Trigger warning: Drugs

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have a bit of a rant concerning weed and alcohol.  I am trying to decide whether to post it in this thread, or start a new one.  It has nothing to do with this thread, but I don't know if we need another thread.

Start a new one. Rants are potentially useful, if you put it in this thread it'll be lost forever.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I disagree.  The first study cited that 99% of the college students who were using were using both natural weed and synthetic, so clearly there wasn't an issue with availability and clearly one wasn't being used as an alternative to the other. 

That's not clear at all.  It may be that they were using both because weed wasn't always available.

Someone who is just out seeking the biggest, quickest, cheapest high will still seek out Spice whether or not marijuana is legal.

And what percentage of users would that entail?  Because if they really want to get THAT fucked up, they'll just say fuck it and do meth. 

I remember in past drug threads it was always argued that weed was "already very easy to get" and I recall some suggesting it was easier to get than alcohol.  Do folks still believe that or have those beliefs shifted?

I believe the term was "commonly available", which is not the same as "universally available". 

Additionally, spice is a banned substance, just like marijuana.  It is far less likely to be available at just any head shop compared to before it was banned.  I know in my area the police regularly check up on head shops to make sure they are not dealing that or "bath salts".

Results may vary.  They only banned K2 in Arizona in April of this year.  The next designer drug will be out - if it isn't already out - very soon.

[AFK]

I disagree.  The first study cited that 99% of the college students who were using were using both natural weed and synthetic, so clearly there wasn't an issue with availability and clearly one wasn't being used as an alternative to the other. 


Someone who is just out seeking the biggest, quickest, cheapest high will still seek out Spice whether or not marijuana is legal. 


I remember in past drug threads it was always argued that weed was "already very easy to get" and I recall some suggesting it was easier to get than alcohol.  Do folks still believe that or have those beliefs shifted?


Additionally, spice is a banned substance, just like marijuana.  It is far less likely to be available at just any head shop compared to before it was banned.  I know in my area the police regularly check up on head shops to make sure they are not dealing that or "bath salts". 


So it seems pretty likely that someone who is going to be successful in tracking down spice is also going to be successful in tracking down weed.


So in the end, legalization really won't have an impact on that.  Maybe a few dopes who can't figure out where to buy weed will switch, but it will be negligible at best, in my opinion.

The first study cited says nothing of the sort. First of all, I don't know where you're getting the part about college students. Second, both are given as lifetime use, and it says nothing whatsoever about whether they were ever used concurrently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23291209

The abstract, for anyone not inclined to click on the link or look up the full study:

Drug Alcohol Depend. 2013 Jul 1;131(1-2):106-11. doi: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2012.12.011. Epub 2013 Jan 3.
Synthetic cannabis: a comparison of patterns of use and effect profile with natural cannabis in a large global sample.
Winstock AR, Barratt MJ.
Source
South London and Maudsley NHS Trust/Kings College London, United Kingdom; Global Drug Survey, London, United Kingdom. adam.winstock@kcl.ac.uk
Abstract

BACKGROUND:
The last decade has seen the appearance of myriad novel psychoactive substances with diverse effect profiles. Synthetic cannabinoids are among the most recently identified but least researched of these substances.

METHODS:
An anonymous online survey was conducted in 2011 using a quantitative structured research tool. Missing data (median 2%) were treated by available-case analysis.

RESULTS:
Of 14,966 participants, 2513 (17%) reported use of synthetic cannabis. Of these, 980 (41% of 2417) reported its use in the last 12 months. Almost all recent synthetic cannabis users (99% of 975) reported ever use of natural cannabis. Synthetic cannabis reportedly had both a shorter duration of action (z=17.82, p<.001) and quicker time to peak onset of effect (z=-9.44, p<.001) than natural cannabis. Natural cannabis was preferred to synthetic cannabis by 93% of users, with natural cannabis rated as having greater pleasurable effects when high (t(930)=-37.1, p<.001, d=-1.22) and being more able to function after use (t(884)=-13.3, p<.001, d=-0.45). Synthetic cannabis was associated with more negative effects (t(859)=18.7, p<.001, d=0.64), hangover effects (t(854)=6.45, p<.001, d=0.22) and greater paranoia (t(889)=7.91, p<.001, d=0.27).

CONCLUSIONS:
Users report a strong preference for natural over synthetic cannabis. The latter has a less desirable effect profile. Further research is required to determine longer term consequences of use and comparative dependence potential.

Copyright © 2013. Published by Elsevier Ireland Ltd.

Yes, most preferred natural cannabis and virtually all of them USED natural cannabis.  If it was being used as an alternative your 99% would be much lower.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I disagree.  The first study cited that 99% of the college students who were using were using both natural weed and synthetic, so clearly there wasn't an issue with availability and clearly one wasn't being used as an alternative to the other. 


Someone who is just out seeking the biggest, quickest, cheapest high will still seek out Spice whether or not marijuana is legal. 


I remember in past drug threads it was always argued that weed was "already very easy to get" and I recall some suggesting it was easier to get than alcohol.  Do folks still believe that or have those beliefs shifted?


Additionally, spice is a banned substance, just like marijuana.  It is far less likely to be available at just any head shop compared to before it was banned.  I know in my area the police regularly check up on head shops to make sure they are not dealing that or "bath salts". 


So it seems pretty likely that someone who is going to be successful in tracking down spice is also going to be successful in tracking down weed.


So in the end, legalization really won't have an impact on that.  Maybe a few dopes who can't figure out where to buy weed will switch, but it will be negligible at best, in my opinion.

The first study cited says nothing of the sort. First of all, I don't know where you're getting the part about college students. Second, both are given as lifetime use, and it says nothing whatsoever about whether they were ever used concurrently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23291209

The abstract, for anyone not inclined to click on the link or look up the full study:

Drug Alcohol Depend. 2013 Jul 1;131(1-2):106-11. doi: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2012.12.011. Epub 2013 Jan 3.
Synthetic cannabis: a comparison of patterns of use and effect profile with natural cannabis in a large global sample.
Winstock AR, Barratt MJ.
Source
South London and Maudsley NHS Trust/Kings College London, United Kingdom; Global Drug Survey, London, United Kingdom. adam.winstock@kcl.ac.uk
Abstract

BACKGROUND:
The last decade has seen the appearance of myriad novel psychoactive substances with diverse effect profiles. Synthetic cannabinoids are among the most recently identified but least researched of these substances.

METHODS:
An anonymous online survey was conducted in 2011 using a quantitative structured research tool. Missing data (median 2%) were treated by available-case analysis.

RESULTS:
Of 14,966 participants, 2513 (17%) reported use of synthetic cannabis. Of these, 980 (41% of 2417) reported its use in the last 12 months. Almost all recent synthetic cannabis users (99% of 975) reported ever use of natural cannabis. Synthetic cannabis reportedly had both a shorter duration of action (z=17.82, p<.001) and quicker time to peak onset of effect (z=-9.44, p<.001) than natural cannabis. Natural cannabis was preferred to synthetic cannabis by 93% of users, with natural cannabis rated as having greater pleasurable effects when high (t(930)=-37.1, p<.001, d=-1.22) and being more able to function after use (t(884)=-13.3, p<.001, d=-0.45). Synthetic cannabis was associated with more negative effects (t(859)=18.7, p<.001, d=0.64), hangover effects (t(854)=6.45, p<.001, d=0.22) and greater paranoia (t(889)=7.91, p<.001, d=0.27).

CONCLUSIONS:
Users report a strong preference for natural over synthetic cannabis. The latter has a less desirable effect profile. Further research is required to determine longer term consequences of use and comparative dependence potential.

Copyright © 2013. Published by Elsevier Ireland Ltd.

Also, this.  As I said, the preference is real and has been linked.  Whether or not RWHN wants to admit that the evidence contradicts his worldview is another matter entirely.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I disagree.  The first study cited that 99% of the college students who were using were using both natural weed and synthetic, so clearly there wasn't an issue with availability and clearly one wasn't being used as an alternative to the other. 


Someone who is just out seeking the biggest, quickest, cheapest high will still seek out Spice whether or not marijuana is legal. 


I remember in past drug threads it was always argued that weed was "already very easy to get" and I recall some suggesting it was easier to get than alcohol.  Do folks still believe that or have those beliefs shifted?


Additionally, spice is a banned substance, just like marijuana.  It is far less likely to be available at just any head shop compared to before it was banned.  I know in my area the police regularly check up on head shops to make sure they are not dealing that or "bath salts". 


So it seems pretty likely that someone who is going to be successful in tracking down spice is also going to be successful in tracking down weed.


So in the end, legalization really won't have an impact on that.  Maybe a few dopes who can't figure out where to buy weed will switch, but it will be negligible at best, in my opinion.

The first study cited says nothing of the sort. First of all, I don't know where you're getting the part about college students. Second, both are given as lifetime use, and it says nothing whatsoever about whether they were ever used concurrently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23291209

The abstract, for anyone not inclined to click on the link or look up the full study:

Drug Alcohol Depend. 2013 Jul 1;131(1-2):106-11. doi: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2012.12.011. Epub 2013 Jan 3.
Synthetic cannabis: a comparison of patterns of use and effect profile with natural cannabis in a large global sample.
Winstock AR, Barratt MJ.
Source
South London and Maudsley NHS Trust/Kings College London, United Kingdom; Global Drug Survey, London, United Kingdom. adam.winstock@kcl.ac.uk
Abstract

BACKGROUND:
The last decade has seen the appearance of myriad novel psychoactive substances with diverse effect profiles. Synthetic cannabinoids are among the most recently identified but least researched of these substances.

METHODS:
An anonymous online survey was conducted in 2011 using a quantitative structured research tool. Missing data (median 2%) were treated by available-case analysis.

RESULTS:
Of 14,966 participants, 2513 (17%) reported use of synthetic cannabis. Of these, 980 (41% of 2417) reported its use in the last 12 months. Almost all recent synthetic cannabis users (99% of 975) reported ever use of natural cannabis. Synthetic cannabis reportedly had both a shorter duration of action (z=17.82, p<.001) and quicker time to peak onset of effect (z=-9.44, p<.001) than natural cannabis. Natural cannabis was preferred to synthetic cannabis by 93% of users, with natural cannabis rated as having greater pleasurable effects when high (t(930)=-37.1, p<.001, d=-1.22) and being more able to function after use (t(884)=-13.3, p<.001, d=-0.45). Synthetic cannabis was associated with more negative effects (t(859)=18.7, p<.001, d=0.64), hangover effects (t(854)=6.45, p<.001, d=0.22) and greater paranoia (t(889)=7.91, p<.001, d=0.27).

CONCLUSIONS:
Users report a strong preference for natural over synthetic cannabis. The latter has a less desirable effect profile. Further research is required to determine longer term consequences of use and comparative dependence potential.

Copyright © 2013. Published by Elsevier Ireland Ltd.

Yes, most preferred natural cannabis and virtually all of them USED natural cannabis.  If it was being used as an alternative your 99% would be much lower.

Um, 99% reported EVER using natural cannabis, and 93% said they preferred it.  No mention of college students was made.

Now you're DELIBERATELY misreading the study, and no mistaking it.

[AFK]

I agree, most of them preferred natural cannabis, and indeed virtually all of them USED natural cannabis, so availability couldn't ve an issue.  Something else is motivating them to use synthetic even though it is demonstrated thay had the ability to get natural cannabis.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I disagree.  The first study cited that 99% of the college students who were using were using both natural weed and synthetic, so clearly there wasn't an issue with availability and clearly one wasn't being used as an alternative to the other. 

Clearly? The only clear thing here is that you don't understand the drug scene 

When I was in Columbus, I had plenty of disposable income and plenty of stoner friends. I could probably get good weed at a reasonable price 80% of the time. However, sometimes the weed would disappear for weeks and if you happened to run dry, you were out until either the dealer got back to you, or you found a new dealer. Marijuana is probably available in every city, every day... but that doesn't mean every stoner knows where to get all of it.

I'd also guess that some number of them heard "legal weed" and thought they'd give it a try because legal is a much nicer place to be than illegal.

Someone who is just out seeking the biggest, quickest, cheapest high will still seek out Spice whether or not marijuana is legal. 

For the kind of people that want that specific kind of high, you're right.  However, I would bet that the number of people that prefer it is a very small percentage.

I remember in past drug threads it was always argued that weed was "already very easy to get" and I recall some suggesting it was easier to get than alcohol.  Do folks still believe that or have those beliefs shifted?

Generally speaking, yes. On a day to day, hourly basis though. maybe, maybe not.

Additionally, spice is a banned substance, just like marijuana.  It is far less likely to be available at just any head shop compared to before it was banned.  I know in my area the police regularly check up on head shops to make sure they are not dealing that or "bath salts". 


So it seems pretty likely that someone who is going to be successful in tracking down spice is also going to be successful in tracking down weed.

I don't know anything about that... I've never heard of a spice dealer and its still legal here in the UK.

So in the end, legalization really won't have an impact on that.  Maybe a few dopes who can't figure out where to buy weed will switch, but it will be negligible at best, in my opinion.

Even if prohibition only cause 10% increase in spice use, isn't that 10% too much? Won't someone think of the children? 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree, most of them preferred natural cannabis, and indeed virtually all of them USED natural cannabis, so availability couldn't ve an issue.

Are you suggesting that weed availability is a fixed thing, with no variability at all?

REALLY?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I have a bit of a rant concerning weed and alcohol.  I am trying to decide whether to post it in this thread, or start a new one.  It has nothing to do with this thread, but I don't know if we need another thread.

Start a new one. Rants are potentially useful, if you put it in this thread it'll be lost forever.

Will do.  That's what I was thinking.

[AFK]

I agree, most of them preferred natural cannabis, and indeed virtually all of them USED natural cannabis, so availability couldn't ve an issue.

Are you suggesting that weed availability is a fixed thing, with no variability at all?

REALLY?

So is marijuana really easy to get or difficult to get currently at its current status as an illegal substance? 

[AFK]

Because, people can correct me if I'm off here, but it feels like people are saying the illicit nature of marijuana is successful in making it more difficult for some people to get.  Am I reading this correctly?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Because, people can correct me if I'm off here, but it feels like people are saying the illicit nature of marijuana is successful in making it more difficult for some people to get.  Am I reading this correctly?

Did you miss what I wrote above? Prohibition fails to make it more difficult to get, generally, but it does occasionally leave you dry for a week or two. During that time, people who like to smoke would likely try a legal alternative.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree, most of them preferred natural cannabis, and indeed virtually all of them USED natural cannabis, so availability couldn't ve an issue.

Are you suggesting that weed availability is a fixed thing, with no variability at all?

REALLY?

So is marijuana really easy to get or difficult to get currently at its current status as an illegal substance?

Is that a yes or a no?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Because, people can correct me if I'm off here, but it feels like people are saying the illicit nature of marijuana is successful in making it more difficult for some people to get.  Am I reading this correctly?

Obviously.  Again, nobody was really arguing that it made obtaining weed more difficult.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

For example, I had a dealer that was always stocked with a variety of kine bud options. I had access 24/7 for about a year and a half. Then the house was raided, the police believed they were dealing coke. They found no coke (and surprisingly didn't find the weed either), but they tore the house up and the landlord of the property kicked them out.

I had no access for about a week. By then, they had a new house set up and things were good. Later the dudes that ran the place got into a fight and split, which left us dry again. Within a week we'd picked up another contact. Ironically, during one dry time I turned down a dealer who knew I was out of weed because the dealer was 15 years old.