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Nigel, Kai...

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, October 17, 2013, 01:23:22 AM

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The Good Reverend Roger

October 17, 2013, 01:23:22 AM
http://www.independentsciencenews.org/science-media/the-goodman-affair-monsanto-targets-the-heart-of-science/

Ever wonder what the fuck these geeks are hiding?

I mean, if they are making a deliberate attempt to short-circuit the peer review process, they probably aren't doing it as a hobby.

I've always sort of laughed at the GMO food thing, but this is whacked.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Kai

#1
October 17, 2013, 12:34:45 PM Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 12:38:23 PM by Kai
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 17, 2013, 01:23:22 AM
http://www.independentsciencenews.org/science-media/the-goodman-affair-monsanto-targets-the-heart-of-science/

Ever wonder what the fuck these geeks are hiding?

I mean, if they are making a deliberate attempt to short-circuit the peer review process, they probably aren't doing it as a hobby.

I've always sort of laughed at the GMO food thing, but this is whacked.

Not anything spectacular. They have money, and are protecting their profits by using it to reduce negative press, whether in the form of journal articles or news media. People like to see some big conspiracy behind it, but really it's an insanely powerful, amoral company. Think of how energy companies operate. Monsanto has moved into that category. I'm not personally concerned over the health effects, if that's what you're asking.

It's just yet another reason not to trust pre-publication peer review to be more than a filter.

Edit: But I'm not really interested in starting an argument over it.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

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The Good Reverend Roger

#2
October 17, 2013, 02:33:16 PM
Quote from: Kai on October 17, 2013, 12:34:45 PM
Edit: But I'm not really interested in starting an argument over it.

Um.

I asked the two of you because you're the two people I know who currently have the most to do with peer review.  Not because I wanted to get in an argument with either one of you.

Never mind.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#3
October 17, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
Kai and I have had some conflict over the topic of GMO, which I think is what he's referring to. I was going to say pretty much what Kai said. They are protecting their money. GMO isn't inherently bad, but in plants introducing genes that express properties that have not previously existed as such can have long-range unforeseen consequences on various other organisms that feed directly or indirectly on GMO material, and Monsanto would like to suppress research that points to any such consequences because it hits their bottom line. They are so heavily invested in GMO at this point that any studies that point to serious health or ecological consequences from products like Roundup Ready or BT corn would be financially disastrous for them if they were taken seriously.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

The Good Reverend Roger

#4
October 17, 2013, 04:53:28 PM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 17, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
Kai and I have had some conflict over the topic of GMO, which I think is what he's referring to. I was going to say pretty much what Kai said. They are protecting their money. GMO isn't inherently bad, but in plants introducing genes that express properties that have not previously existed as such can have long-range unforeseen consequences on various other organisms that feed directly or indirectly on GMO material, and Monsanto would like to suppress research that points to any such consequences because it hits their bottom line. They are so heavily invested in GMO at this point that any studies that point to serious health or ecological consequences from products like Roundup Ready or BT corn would be financially disastrous for them if they were taken seriously.

To me, it seems like a rather rapid erosion of the scientific community, which I find far more disturbing than a strain or two of GMO crops.  Also, it makes me very curious...Why would anyone go through all that effort to protect their investment, if there wasn't something wrong with that investment.

With power comes the absolute certainty of turning into a pigfucker.  And a company vetting its own science is about as good as Goldman Sachs vetting its own bond ratings a few years ago.

It's not one company making a shifty call.  It's the dissolution of the scientific method by the creation of a machine designed for fraud.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#5
October 17, 2013, 05:21:25 PM
So, now I can't believe ANYTHING.  Scientist makes a claim, the first question is "Who paid you to find the results they wanted you to find?", because the method by which other scientists check and/or reproduce the results may still be intact, but the means by which this is communicated to me is hopelessly compromised.

The second question isn't "who is this scientist working for", but "To which companies have they applied for employment"?

The third question is, "Who benefits?"

You will notice that at no point am I asking "Who has reproduced the experiment", because I have to automatically assume that THAT was bullshit, too.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#6
October 17, 2013, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: Kai on October 17, 2013, 12:34:45 PM
It's just yet another reason not to trust pre-publication peer review to be more than a filter.

Can't trust the post-publication shit, either, because IT is more than likely just as corrupt.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#7
October 17, 2013, 05:42:22 PM
Hello, there.  I'm Doctor Andrew Wakefield, and I'd like to thank the international scientific community for not being too upset about this little development.
\
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#8
October 17, 2013, 05:43:50 PM
So far, of three trained scientists on this board, ONE has expressed dismay at this, either in this thread or in the one concerning the deliberately faked publication.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#9
October 17, 2013, 05:48:16 PM
TRUST THIS MAN.



IT'S NOT LIKE YOU HAVE A CHOICE.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Demolition Squid

#10
October 17, 2013, 05:53:22 PM
...

Quote from: Claire Robinson and Jonathan LathamFast forward to September 2012, when the scientific journal Food and Chemical Toxicology (FCT) published a study that caused an international storm (Séralini, et al. 2012). The study, led by Prof Gilles-Eric Séralini of the University of Caen, France, suggested a Monsanto genetically modified (GM) maize, and the Roundup herbicide it is grown with, pose serious health risks. The two-year feeding study found that rats fed both suffered severe organ damage and increased rates of tumors and premature death. Both the herbicide (Roundup) and the GM maize are Monsanto products.

I'm not a scientist and I get that rats do not equal humans...

... But it is the sort of thing which would make me want to see more studies on potential health risks to humans, and the fact they are moving to just shut that down is genuinely worrying to me.
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

The Good Reverend Roger

#11
October 17, 2013, 05:56:28 PM
Quote from: Demolition Squid on October 17, 2013, 05:53:22 PM
...

Quote from: Claire Robinson and Jonathan LathamFast forward to September 2012, when the scientific journal Food and Chemical Toxicology (FCT) published a study that caused an international storm (Séralini, et al. 2012). The study, led by Prof Gilles-Eric Séralini of the University of Caen, France, suggested a Monsanto genetically modified (GM) maize, and the Roundup herbicide it is grown with, pose serious health risks. The two-year feeding study found that rats fed both suffered severe organ damage and increased rates of tumors and premature death. Both the herbicide (Roundup) and the GM maize are Monsanto products.

I'm not a scientist and I get that rats do not equal humans...

... But it is the sort of thing which would make me want to see more studies on potential health risks to humans, and the fact they are moving to just shut that down is genuinely worrying to me.

It's not even that.  I KNOW that corporations pull shifty shit.

It's that almost nobody seems to GIVE A FUCK.  Nigel spoke up, in the other thread.  Everyone else either said it wasn't important or even that it's ACCEPTABLE, because GOD FORBID WE HAVE AN APPEAL TO AUTHORITY THAT ACTUALLY IS AN AUTHORITY.

Now we have an appeal to authority that is founded on bullshit and fucking apathy.

WELL DONE, SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY!  Now, what have you told us recently that you wanted us to believe?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#12
October 17, 2013, 06:03:41 PM
Of course rats don't equal humans, and also of course a diet consisting entirely of maize doesn't reflect actual human consumption. Studies like this merely point in the direction of further research that needs to be done, and companies moving to make sure that research doesn't happen is really very bad. Corporations shutting down science research because they're afraid it will compromise their bottom line is flat-out corruption.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

The Good Reverend Roger

#13
October 17, 2013, 06:04:25 PM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 17, 2013, 06:03:41 PM
and companies moving to make sure that research doesn't happen is really very bad.

THIS.


QuoteCorporations shutting down science research because they're afraid it will compromise their bottom line is flat-out corruption.

AND THAT.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

hooplala

#14
October 17, 2013, 06:05:37 PM
It's getting dangerously close to the point where I will simply start giggling like a ninny, and never be able to stop.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)" — Walt Whitman
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