Burgers?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

It's a boss name.

Thanks, Hoops.

[East Coast Hustle]

And I'm not sure I buy into the argument that we as a society should be obligated to allow people to continue to wallow in their own ignorance and to hand it down generationally.

I am more comfortable with that than with deciding what we allow people to believe.

I think we should allow people to believe whatever they want. But I also think we should educate the FUCK out of them first, and then let them decide what nonsense to cling to.

Critical thinking skills and free, high-quality education should be part of any civilized society, absolutely. But you might be surprised to find that these don't act as a vaccine against religion. They do, however, tend to foster gentler, more open, less dogmatic forms of religion, though, such as Lutherans and Episcopalians.

I wouldn't be surprised at all, since I'm not a rabid dogmatic atheist. I would view trying to eradicate religion as a fool's errand, and probably a bit of a dick move.

However, I would be curious to see the effect on religion if science was stressed from an early age in a society's free high-quality education with an emphasis on critical thinking. I don't know enough about the educational systems of other countries to know if such a society exists currently.

I'm getting enough of a high quality education in the sciences that MIT reps are coming in to say that just because we're at community college doesn't mean that they won't let our credits transfer, and quite the opposite. Our science courses are apparently, in their own words, rigorous enough that we might want to reconsider going onto a 4 year state college. I won't for financial reasons. But my point here is that I'm going into a field that traditionally evaporates a person's belief in a higher power (physics and biology specialists tend to be more atheistic than chemists and engineers), and while it has helped to evaporate my understanding of immortality, it has paradoxically only served to reinforce my belief in some sort of higher power. From a rational perspective, I suspect that that is just how my brain is wired. But biology, while for some is a faith-killer, has been a reinforcing agent that merely kills specific doctrines about God.

yeah, but I'm talking about if you had started sciencing when you were 3. Your anecdote, while appreciated and informative to be sure, isn't really relevant to what I was saying.

[East Coast Hustle]

Defensiveness? I can get how I come across as emotional, it's kind of part and parcel of the comedic rant medium. Even the trauma thing, yeah I have a bona fide real world experience which I generally portray from the "abused child/bible camp survivor" perspective so one might logically assume I was traumatised by this experience. Trust me - it was not traumatic. A bunch of born again space cadets tried to brainwash me at summer camp. At 12 or 13 years old I was already way to smart for that shit. A bit shocked that brainwashing bible camps were actually a real thing but that was surprise and disgust, not trauma.

But defensive? Shot out of leftfield, I'm shooting for a mix of aggressive/passive aggressive how did I miss the target by such a wide margin?

Problem is, when you try to shoehorn a comedic rant into a conversation that people are taking seriously, they might just take you seriously too, especially when part of your "comedic rant" is calling them names or denigrating them for what they believe in. It's sort of like how telling nigger jokes rarely goes over well unless you're telling them at a Klan rally.

Given that people choose to be religious and are born with their skin color, that's not an analogy that holds up. And I don't know if you realize it but you're coming off very condescending in this thread. Telling people why you think they're wrong and/or what colossal jerks they are for being (subjectively, in your opinion) wrong doesn't make for much of a discussion, if that's all you're bringing to it. Trying to compare people who think religion is a little ridiculous to people who hate other people because of their skin color is even a little offensive.

ETA: Not trying to pick on you or be a dick, just mentioning it because it's not the first time it's happened in a thread of this subject and while you are certainly entitled to your opinion this is a pretty interesting topic and I feel like you're trying to shut it down rather than open it up, unintentional though that may be.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Defensiveness? I can get how I come across as emotional, it's kind of part and parcel of the comedic rant medium. Even the trauma thing, yeah I have a bona fide real world experience which I generally portray from the "abused child/bible camp survivor" perspective so one might logically assume I was traumatised by this experience. Trust me - it was not traumatic. A bunch of born again space cadets tried to brainwash me at summer camp. At 12 or 13 years old I was already way to smart for that shit. A bit shocked that brainwashing bible camps were actually a real thing but that was surprise and disgust, not trauma.

But defensive? Shot out of leftfield, I'm shooting for a mix of aggressive/passive aggressive how did I miss the target by such a wide margin?

Problem is, when you try to shoehorn a comedic rant into a conversation that people are taking seriously, they might just take you seriously too, especially when part of your "comedic rant" is calling them names or denigrating them for what they believe in. It's sort of like how telling nigger jokes rarely goes over well unless you're telling them at a Klan rally.

Yeah, I got ya. Needs work. From my perspective it's the whole "taking seriously" thing that I'm arguing against. I can't argue against taking something seriously by taking it seriously myself but, at the same time I have to walk the fine line between insulting the belief and insulting the believer by association. I try my best to stress this but it's not easy. Comes across as backpedalling?

It's like how do you tell someone who's falling for a 419 scam that 419 scams are dumb, without making the victim out to be dumb. FTR I don't think people who fall for 419 scams are dumb, they've simply fallen prey to a well known psychological exploit. Also FTR - I see institutionalised religion and 419 scams as almost exactly the same thing.

Something I probably often allude to but maybe have never explicitly stated and which Twid made mention of is my take on what I'd maybe call "spirituality" or "metaphysics" in the context of religion conversations. The idea that I do not find the notion of some form of intelligence/creator in any way outlandish or ridiculous and, in fact, my guess is there's a far higher probability of such a scenario being true than not.

The words "religion" and "faith" however are very loaded in my mind, and associated with the aforementioned 419 scam. "Belief" is also something I'm very iffy about. I realise I'm probably in a tiny minority, globally when I say that any form of belief, in pretty much anything, supernatural or otherwise strikes me as unnecessary and (potentially) harmful/exploitable. I'm not sure it is utterly unavoidable but the less the better, IMO. "Belief" defined as - without evidence - to clarify semantics.

Now, when I find myself in a tiny minority on some issue, it becomes much more important to me to test this notion by debating with people who do claim to believe stuff as to why it might be a good thing. Especially people who strike me as smarter and better informed than the average Joe.

Also, there is a strong abrasive/dismissive/sarcastic component to my personality which works well in shooting the shit and a few other situations but often doesn't go down so well in others. Only just noticed this effect (embarrassed to say, my ego had put it down to you, since it's most often yourself that reacts strongly to this with something similar) but now that I've noticed, I'll dial it off when it isn't perhaps best suited.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't take religion seriously, and it's OK if you don't take religion seriously, but it's not OK to shit on other people for taking religion seriously, IMO.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You know, ECH, "they weren't born that way" is the stupidest fucking excuse for justifying bigoted behavior I think I've ever heard.

You don't like that I think it's bigotry? Oh fucking well.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

We CAN have discussions about religion without resorting to childish "Those People are all ignorant, stupid, superstitious, gullible, brainwahed" etc. verbiage. I'm not trying to shut down the discussion, I'm trying to point out that that kind of language is bigotry, and that it's a super, super-shitty thing to say to people who are ostensibly your friends who happen to be religious.

Also, FWIW "they weren't born that way" doesn't hold up as a defense against religious discrimination lawsuits, and I don't see why I should let it hold up as a defense in my conscience.

[LMNO]

There seems to be some sort of line that gets crossed when it goes from belief to action.

Sure, it's fine to believe that having faith in a deity will protect you from the venom of snakes.  It's another thing to roll around in a viper pit thinking you'll be fine.

Or, for that matter, it's fine to believe that those who don't share your faith are going to Hell, but it's another thing to treat the faithless as lesser creatures.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Perhaps summarizable as "it's foolish to put yourself in danger because of your religious beliefs, and it's wrong to shit on people because of them".

[LMNO]

Maybe it's perception bias, but there a lot of people who do a lot of foolish and wrong things because of their beliefs. And a lot of those beliefs have some sort of religious component.

Or am I missing something?  I feel like I may be.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Maybe it's perception bias, but there a lot of people who do a lot of foolish and wrong things because of their beliefs. And a lot of those beliefs have some sort of religious component.

Or am I missing something?  I feel like I may be.

I am not sure, really. Basically all I have an objection to is blanket labeling all religious people foolish and wrong because some religious people do foolish and wrong things on behalf of their religion.

We've gone a long way from the topic of the OP.

[Junkenstein]

If anyone else watched that sapolsky video, it'd be much more interesting to discuss that.

Just saying.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Given that people choose to be religious and are born with their skin color, that's not an analogy that holds up.

So we're giving the blacks a break on account of how that was the way they were born?

There's something nasty in there if you unpack it all the way.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Maybe it's perception bias, but there a lot of people who do a lot of foolish and wrong things because of their beliefs. And a lot of those beliefs have some sort of religious component.

Or am I missing something?  I feel like I may be.

I am not sure, really. Basically all I have an objection to is blanket labeling all religious people foolish and wrong because some religious people do foolish and wrong things on behalf of their religion.

We've gone a long way from the topic of the OP.

As mentioned in my last tl/dr post - people believing foolish and wrong things are not necessarily foolish and wrong, they just happen to believe foolish and wrong things.

It's easy for me, on this side of the argument, to understand this distinction and still hold said people in very high regard. It's not such an easy distinction for the believers to make, however, since it's their belief that is under attack. A belief that they have internalised and taken ownership of, as a fundamental aspect of their psyche.

Smart people are no less capable of doing dumb things than idiots. Nobody likes being called on doing something dumb, however it makes them no less smart and the thing no less dumb. Faith in dogmatic religion is a dumb mistake that many smart people have been making repeatedly since it was programmed into them from birth. It's understandable. The ego is saturated with it, it's built on strong foundations.

I don't care how much I respect someone, I aint going to sit back and pretend this is okay. In my mind, if you respect someone, it's wrong to humour them. What do you do when a member of your family refuses to vaccinate their kids in favour of homeopathy? Do you just say "Okay, I'll respect your beliefs"?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There isn't very much, if any, difference between you "not giving people a break" for believing in something you think is dumb, and religious people "not giving people a break" for being Atheists. The bottom line is that unless they make it your business, people's religious beliefs are none of your business.

There's a material difference between believing in god and believing in not vaccinating, because one affects no one but the believer, and the other has potential public health ramifications. Likewise, faith is not a matter of empirical evidence, but homeopathy is.

Basically, you can choose to be an asshole about it because of your beliefs, or you can choose not to.