Burgers?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The REASON we are a long way from the fucking OP is that Twid wanted to talk about the purpose of religion inside the framework of said religion.  But then it was all fairy godmother shit AGAIN.  That was rebutted, AGAIN, and now we're ONCE MORE rebutting the rebuttal of the rebuttal and the person who tried to stop the derail has now been called "condescending" for her troubles.

Fuck that.  Twid, we will have to have this conversation elsewhere, because it is apparently not possible to have it here, between the people screeching COMEDIC RANTS and the people getting mad about people getting mad about said COMEDIC RANTS.

The EXACT same COMEDIC RANTS that were brought up in threads that were debating whether or not God existed.  A fucking generic shutdown of any conversation that is for some fucking odd reason "taboo" around here (HAVE SOME IRONY, IT'S FUCKING HALF-PRICE).

Fuck this.  This is a fucking disgrace.

Twid, hit me up. 

ETA:  And Nigel, thanks for trying to prevent the SAME OLD SONG AND DANCE.  I appreciate it, I am sure Twid does too.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As a point of comparison:

I don't care how much I respect someone, I aint going to sit back and pretend this is okay. In my mind, if you respect someone, it's wrong to humour them. What do you do when a member of your family refuses to vaccinate their kids in favour of homeopathy? Do you just say "Okay, I'll respect your beliefs"?

I have heard this exact argument used as an argument for Christian proselytizing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The REASON we are a long way from the fucking OP is that Twid wanted to talk about the purpose of religion inside the framework of said religion.  But then it was all fairy godmother shit AGAIN.  That was rebutted, AGAIN, and now we're ONCE MORE rebutting the rebuttal of the rebuttal and the person who tried to stop the derail has now been called "condescending" for her troubles.

Fuck that.  Twid, we will have to have this conversation elsewhere, because it is apparently not possible to have it here, between the people screeching COMEDIC RANTS and the people getting mad about people getting mad about said COMEDIC RANTS.

The EXACT same COMEDIC RANTS that were brought up in threads that were debating whether or not God existed.  A fucking generic shutdown of any conversation that is for some fucking odd reason "taboo" around here (HAVE SOME IRONY, IT'S FUCKING HALF-PRICE).

Fuck this.  This is a fucking disgrace.

Twid, hit me up. 

ETA:  And Nigel, thanks for trying to prevent the SAME OLD SONG AND DANCE.  I appreciate it, I am sure Twid does too.

YW. I'm sick of this bullshit too.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Fair enough - bullshit ends. I'm out.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I can only hope that next time a discussion concerning religion comes up, you'll at least make some sort of effort to refrain from turning it into Pent's Anti-Religion Proselytizing Thread by page three. Just because your agenda is hanging out doesn't mean you have to rub it on everything.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Will do Roger, when I feel like discussing it again.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I can only hope that next time a discussion concerning religion comes up, you'll at least make some sort of effort to refrain from turning it into Pent's Anti-Religion Proselytizing Thread by page three. Just because your agenda is hanging out doesn't mean you have to rub it on everything.

You got it. When it comes to religion, I guess I'm kinda like roger when a Magique thread happens - like a rottweiler with a a new chew toy. No worries, tho. When I say it's over, it's over.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Thanks.  I appreciate it.  I don't mind the points in a thread being rebutted, but within the scope of the debate.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Also, Junkenstein, will watch the video later.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, Junkenstein, will watch the video later.

You won't regret it, it's excellent. Challenging, but excellent. His essay is also excellent, but I haven't been able to find it online; it's in this book, which you, as a biologist, would probably thoroughly enjoy, and you can probably find a copy cheap online or locally: http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-With-Testosterone-Predicament/dp/0684838915

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And I'm not sure I buy into the argument that we as a society should be obligated to allow people to continue to wallow in their own ignorance and to hand it down generationally.

I am more comfortable with that than with deciding what we allow people to believe.

I think we should allow people to believe whatever they want. But I also think we should educate the FUCK out of them first, and then let them decide what nonsense to cling to.

Critical thinking skills and free, high-quality education should be part of any civilized society, absolutely. But you might be surprised to find that these don't act as a vaccine against religion. They do, however, tend to foster gentler, more open, less dogmatic forms of religion, though, such as Lutherans and Episcopalians.

I wouldn't be surprised at all, since I'm not a rabid dogmatic atheist. I would view trying to eradicate religion as a fool's errand, and probably a bit of a dick move.

However, I would be curious to see the effect on religion if science was stressed from an early age in a society's free high-quality education with an emphasis on critical thinking. I don't know enough about the educational systems of other countries to know if such a society exists currently.

I'm getting enough of a high quality education in the sciences that MIT reps are coming in to say that just because we're at community college doesn't mean that they won't let our credits transfer, and quite the opposite. Our science courses are apparently, in their own words, rigorous enough that we might want to reconsider going onto a 4 year state college. I won't for financial reasons. But my point here is that I'm going into a field that traditionally evaporates a person's belief in a higher power (physics and biology specialists tend to be more atheistic than chemists and engineers), and while it has helped to evaporate my understanding of immortality, it has paradoxically only served to reinforce my belief in some sort of higher power. From a rational perspective, I suspect that that is just how my brain is wired. But biology, while for some is a faith-killer, has been a reinforcing agent that merely kills specific doctrines about God.

yeah, but I'm talking about if you had started sciencing when you were 3. Your anecdote, while appreciated and informative to be sure, isn't really relevant to what I was saying.

And to address this point, there are hypotheses out there that religiosity has a genetic component. Further, I attended Catholic schools from the ages 5 to 12. They encouraged sciencing. Indeed, between those ages I wanted to be a scientist. The only interruption in that was the approximately 18 years when I wanted to be a professional musician. Nuns don't teach Intelligent Design, they teach Evolution, because they know that Evolution is a fact. Same thing with the Big Bang. It's absurd to say that neither of them are fact. Catholics still exist, somehow, even though there are stories in the Bible are patent bullshit. Ok, so it's not from age 3, but I don't think that those 2 years are that critical to religiosity to negate the point.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh, and you might enjoy this article, which I believe is relevant to the OP: http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/03/11/3389411/degrasse-tyson-religion/

Like Tyson, I consider myself an agnostic, for the reason that when you have a condition for which no test can be devised, it makes no sense to me, personally, to arrive at a conclusion about that condition.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Also, Junkenstein, will watch the video later.

You won't regret it, it's excellent. Challenging, but excellent. His essay is also excellent, but I haven't been able to find it online; it's in this book, which you, as a biologist, would probably thoroughly enjoy, and you can probably find a copy cheap online or locally: http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-With-Testosterone-Predicament/dp/0684838915

Tabbed that as well.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Oh, and you might enjoy this article, which I believe is relevant to the OP: http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/03/11/3389411/degrasse-tyson-religion/

Like Tyson, I consider myself an agnostic, for the reason that when you have a condition for which no test can be devised, it makes no sense to me, personally, to arrive at a conclusion about that condition.

Great article. I think one of the most interesting things that NDT has said on the matter is that he doesn't have the time or the energy for promoting non-belief. It doesn't interest him. Whether God exists or not is entirely irrelevant to him. He just flat out doesn't care if there is one or not. And quite honestly I think my pantheism is due to having been exposed to Sagan's Cosmos as a kid. Even though he basically points out that theism is an unscientific proposition (my sun god is a different sun god than your sun god. One of them has to not exist. If one doesn't exist, why not both? You know, unless you're a Wiccan and its all the same to them one way or the other), there's some sort of spiritual awe at reality that comes through. You can tell the dude was a dreamer. And I think NDT is doing a fine job filling those very large shoes.

[LMNO]

Just don't forget that wonder at the beauty of the universe doesn't always mean the same as spiritual (read: supernatural) awe.

For some people.