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Started by Nephew Twiddleton, April 22, 2014, 05:13:00 AM

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P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 08:43:53 AM
To further explain the point-

the Solar System has been around for about a third of the universe's existence. Fine and dandy life could have arisen before then.

Well, no, hang on. We have to start seeding the galaxy with enough iron and what not to even get to that question. How long does that take? To get enough heavy stuff out there and clump it together with a well placed supernova? To get the right sized rock the right sized distance from its star? I don't doubt at all that there are aliens. I think that we must start seriously asking ourselves the question if the reason that we have not seen any evidence of a technological extraterrestrial species, is because... well...

We might be the first. Not even just in this galaxy, but, ever. Someone has to be. The heavens might be silent, because we are the biggest game in town.


Terrifying thought, isn't it?

Doesn't terrify me in the slightest. TBH, I think it'd be kinda cool if that turned out to be the case but I don't think that's as likely. I can accept the we might be the only one in this particular (assuming finite) universe, Maybe the size of the finite universe makes the probability of only one or two consciousnesses developing most likely. However, what if the multiverse is infinite? That would mean there were a fuckton (metric) of other universes out there supporting as many as half a dozen disparate consciousnesses in some cases?

Contacting ET is something I would think was awesome as fuck, same as the next guy but, whether it actually happens or not, I'm kinda ambivalent about. If we never find a race of aliens, it's no skin off my nose.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
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Reginald Ret

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 26, 2014, 10:09:35 AM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 08:43:53 AM
To further explain the point-

the Solar System has been around for about a third of the universe's existence. Fine and dandy life could have arisen before then.

Well, no, hang on. We have to start seeding the galaxy with enough iron and what not to even get to that question. How long does that take? To get enough heavy stuff out there and clump it together with a well placed supernova? To get the right sized rock the right sized distance from its star? I don't doubt at all that there are aliens. I think that we must start seriously asking ourselves the question if the reason that we have not seen any evidence of a technological extraterrestrial species, is because... well...

We might be the first. Not even just in this galaxy, but, ever. Someone has to be. The heavens might be silent, because we are the biggest game in town.


Terrifying thought, isn't it?

Doesn't terrify me in the slightest. TBH, I think it'd be kinda cool if that turned out to be the case but I don't think that's as likely. I can accept the we might be the only one in this particular (assuming finite) universe, Maybe the size of the finite universe makes the probability of only one or two consciousnesses developing most likely. However, what if the multiverse is infinite? That would mean there were a fuckton (metric) of other universes out there supporting as many as half a dozen disparate consciousnesses in some cases?

Contacting ET is something I would think was awesome as fuck, same as the next guy but, whether it actually happens or not, I'm kinda ambivalent about. If we never find a race of aliens, it's no skin off my nose.

http://www.space.com/24496-universe-alien-life-habitability-big-bang.html
This theory, if true, implies that we may be one of the last.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

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Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Regret on April 26, 2014, 01:00:27 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 26, 2014, 10:09:35 AM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 08:43:53 AM
To further explain the point-

the Solar System has been around for about a third of the universe's existence. Fine and dandy life could have arisen before then.

Well, no, hang on. We have to start seeding the galaxy with enough iron and what not to even get to that question. How long does that take? To get enough heavy stuff out there and clump it together with a well placed supernova? To get the right sized rock the right sized distance from its star? I don't doubt at all that there are aliens. I think that we must start seriously asking ourselves the question if the reason that we have not seen any evidence of a technological extraterrestrial species, is because... well...

We might be the first. Not even just in this galaxy, but, ever. Someone has to be. The heavens might be silent, because we are the biggest game in town.


Terrifying thought, isn't it?

Doesn't terrify me in the slightest. TBH, I think it'd be kinda cool if that turned out to be the case but I don't think that's as likely. I can accept the we might be the only one in this particular (assuming finite) universe, Maybe the size of the finite universe makes the probability of only one or two consciousnesses developing most likely. However, what if the multiverse is infinite? That would mean there were a fuckton (metric) of other universes out there supporting as many as half a dozen disparate consciousnesses in some cases?

Contacting ET is something I would think was awesome as fuck, same as the next guy but, whether it actually happens or not, I'm kinda ambivalent about. If we never find a race of aliens, it's no skin off my nose.

http://www.space.com/24496-universe-alien-life-habitability-big-bang.html
This theory, if true, implies that we may be one of the last.

I'm not sure if I buy that, main reason being the scarcity of elements necessary for life.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 05:55:37 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 26, 2014, 03:43:56 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 25, 2014, 06:29:45 PM
Just don't forget that wonder at the beauty of the universe doesn't always mean the same as spiritual (read: supernatural) awe.

For some people.

For me, screw supernatural awe.  I'll figure that shit out when I'm dead.  Right now, I'm geeked out on the physical universe around me.  Plenty of time for that other stuff later.

I like the supernatural awe in this life, but again, I hate that word supernatural. If something exists above nature, it can't exist. Supernatural is a meaningless word. Something exists or it does not exist. Nothing can exist outside of everything.

To my mind, that's the very definition of God.  If he has to work inside the structure, it's not a god an in fact would be just a very powerful natural critter of some sort.
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- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 26, 2014, 07:53:49 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 05:55:37 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 26, 2014, 03:43:56 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 25, 2014, 06:29:45 PM
Just don't forget that wonder at the beauty of the universe doesn't always mean the same as spiritual (read: supernatural) awe.

For some people.

For me, screw supernatural awe.  I'll figure that shit out when I'm dead.  Right now, I'm geeked out on the physical universe around me.  Plenty of time for that other stuff later.

I like the supernatural awe in this life, but again, I hate that word supernatural. If something exists above nature, it can't exist. Supernatural is a meaningless word. Something exists or it does not exist. Nothing can exist outside of everything.

To my mind, that's the very definition of God.  If he has to work inside the structure, it's not a god an in fact would be just a very powerful natural critter of some sort.

And I think that's where individual variation in the definition of "God" comes into play. To me, if there is a God, or Gods, they are the final product of emergence, at a level of complexity that we are incapable of measuring.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.

:?

Did I miss some science news, or what?
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 26, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.

:?

Did I miss some science news, or what?

No, this is old news, origin of life stuff.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


hooplala

#173
I'd just like to mention that agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive terms.  Carry on.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 26, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.

:?

Did I miss some science news, or what?

No, this is old news, origin of life stuff.

That's what I thought, I just don't see what you're getting at.

Twid seemed to be marveling at the apparent origin of all life on Earth as far as it can be traced back, and you seemed to be pushing for a subtler distinction between a species and an individual organism.

I'm just curious as to where exactly Twid is wrong, since what he's saying fits with what I remember from my biology courses.
P E R   A S P E R A   A D   A S T R A

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 27, 2014, 02:29:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 26, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.

:?

Did I miss some science news, or what?

No, this is old news, origin of life stuff.

That's what I thought, I just don't see what you're getting at.

Twid seemed to be marveling at the apparent origin of all life on Earth as far as it can be traced back, and you seemed to be pushing for a subtler distinction between a species and an individual organism.

I'm just curious as to where exactly Twid is wrong, since what he's saying fits with what I remember from my biology courses.

Splitting hairs; I could have misread him but it sounded like he was saying "a single individual prokaryote", rather than "a species of prokaryotes". It's not really important though, and if it was I'm sure Twid would say something.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Nigel on April 27, 2014, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 27, 2014, 02:29:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 26, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.

:?

Did I miss some science news, or what?

No, this is old news, origin of life stuff.

That's what I thought, I just don't see what you're getting at.

Twid seemed to be marveling at the apparent origin of all life on Earth as far as it can be traced back, and you seemed to be pushing for a subtler distinction between a species and an individual organism.

I'm just curious as to where exactly Twid is wrong, since what he's saying fits with what I remember from my biology courses.

Splitting hairs; I could have misread him but it sounded like he was saying "a single individual prokaryote", rather than "a species of prokaryotes". It's not really important though, and if it was I'm sure Twid would say something.

Yeah, not really that important. I was referring to an individual organism as a point of origin- the ancestral species had to descend from something in order to be a species. However, that may be the only branch on the tree of life that survived. Other species may have emerged independently on Earth and died out pretty quickly, leaving only one lineage in the present day.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 27, 2014, 02:48:33 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 27, 2014, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 27, 2014, 02:29:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 26, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.

:?

Did I miss some science news, or what?

No, this is old news, origin of life stuff.

That's what I thought, I just don't see what you're getting at.

Twid seemed to be marveling at the apparent origin of all life on Earth as far as it can be traced back, and you seemed to be pushing for a subtler distinction between a species and an individual organism.

I'm just curious as to where exactly Twid is wrong, since what he's saying fits with what I remember from my biology courses.

Splitting hairs; I could have misread him but it sounded like he was saying "a single individual prokaryote", rather than "a species of prokaryotes". It's not really important though, and if it was I'm sure Twid would say something.

Yeah, not really that important. I was referring to an individual organism as a point of origin- the ancestral species had to descend from something in order to be a species. However, that may be the only branch on the tree of life that survived. Other species may have emerged independently on Earth and died out pretty quickly, leaving only one lineage in the present day.

Well, if you get distant enough from the point of origin there has to be at least one shared ancestor, but that doesn't mean that an identified shared ancestor is the sole ancestor, if that makes sense. If we had a whole bunch of amino acids coming together and at some point those amino acids formed into a bunch of suspiciously similar RNA strands and those strands, sharing as they did a particular set of conditions, started replicating themselves and eventually built a bunch of proteins and formed the most rudimentary cells, there is no particular reason to think that there was not a pretty generous exchange of code amongst them all, especially looking at the behavior of current-day bacteria. So it may not even be so much that life as we know it is the descendant of a single species of prokaryote, as that it is a benign confluence of many.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

My favorite hypothesis about how eukaryotes came to be is that after the bacteria and archaea split, at some point a branch of bacteria and a branch of archaea found each other, and the archaea engulfed the bacteria, which somehow figured out how (as bacteria are pretty damn good at doing) to exist symbiotically within the archaea, eventually fusing DNA to form the nucleus as we know it today. And then engulfing some other shit too, for shits and giggles, giving us mitochondria and plants chloroplasts.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞

Quote from: Nigel on April 27, 2014, 02:57:10 AM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 27, 2014, 02:48:33 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 27, 2014, 02:40:59 AM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 27, 2014, 02:29:12 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on April 26, 2014, 11:13:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Ållnephew Tvýðleþøn on April 26, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
Another thing that drives me a bit nuts, in a frustrated sort of way, is that we only have contact with one inhabited planet. We know that we're not alone, and we aren't hearing anything. Hearing something would have significant impact on my spiritual perspective. We don't know why the universe is so quiet. Maybe they don't use radio. Maybe that's a weird quirk of ours. Maybe eukaryotic, complex life is fucking aberrant. Maybe technological life even more so.

One of the things that really makes me think, is that all life on Earth is descended from the same common ancestor. Score one for evolution. That was never in question. Step back for a sec. Why did life only emerge once? Why is all life on Earth descended, apparently, from one single fluke organism? It's not even a question of complex intelligent life emerging twice in the course of 4 billion years, it's that it all comes from one single place. One common ancestor. One lonely, unique, prokaryote that just happened to survive.

Not exactly. A common ancestor in this context means a common ancestor species, not a single bacteria.

:?

Did I miss some science news, or what?

No, this is old news, origin of life stuff.

That's what I thought, I just don't see what you're getting at.

Twid seemed to be marveling at the apparent origin of all life on Earth as far as it can be traced back, and you seemed to be pushing for a subtler distinction between a species and an individual organism.

I'm just curious as to where exactly Twid is wrong, since what he's saying fits with what I remember from my biology courses.

Splitting hairs; I could have misread him but it sounded like he was saying "a single individual prokaryote", rather than "a species of prokaryotes". It's not really important though, and if it was I'm sure Twid would say something.

Yeah, not really that important. I was referring to an individual organism as a point of origin- the ancestral species had to descend from something in order to be a species. However, that may be the only branch on the tree of life that survived. Other species may have emerged independently on Earth and died out pretty quickly, leaving only one lineage in the present day.

Well, if you get distant enough from the point of origin there has to be at least one shared ancestor, but that doesn't mean that an identified shared ancestor is the sole ancestor, if that makes sense. If we had a whole bunch of amino acids coming together and at some point those amino acids formed into a bunch of suspiciously similar RNA strands and those strands, sharing as they did a particular set of conditions, started replicating themselves and eventually built a bunch of proteins and formed the most rudimentary cells, there is no particular reason to think that there was not a pretty generous exchange of code amongst them all, especially looking at the behavior of current-day bacteria. So it may not even be so much that life as we know it is the descendant of a single species of prokaryote, as that it is a benign confluence of many.

Right on. That makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for elaborating, you two.
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