Craniosacral therapy - woo?

[Dildo Argentino]

It might help him with the "lack of evidence for does not equal evidence against" line of reasoning, which is true in some cases and false in others.

Could you give me an example of a case in which it is false, please?

I did.

I can see that this is going in the "dig my heels in and screech because I want to believe" direction, so I am bowing out for now.

No! I genuinely don't see it, I must be a dumb bastard, but please point me at it before bowing out.

[Dildo Argentino]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Yeah, at what point did I say this service was quick? My Service agreements make Scientologly look downright reasonable.

Look, it's simple: If the mark has given you money once, why not try again? Until they stop. Which seems to take 4-5 years.

I sincerely hope you're implying that they could have become actual medical professionals in that timespan.

So you are offering to provide several years of training in something you don't know anything about? That's amazing! And no, unfortunately they couldn't have become actual medical professionals (or certified ones, anyway) in that time: medical school is full time, these things you can do part time, at the weekends, etc. So my comparison was pretty unfair, and I hereby retract it: although people qualifying in the more stringent varieties of alt med do put in a lot of work, it's nowhere near on par with the effort involved in genuinely qualifying as a doctor. Although it is possible and not unheard of for people to qualify as doctors using disingenious methods.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It might help him with the "lack of evidence for does not equal evidence against" line of reasoning, which is true in some cases and false in others.

Could you give me an example of a case in which it is false, please?

I did.

I can see that this is going in the "dig my heels in and screech because I want to believe" direction, so I am bowing out for now.

No! I genuinely don't see it, I must be a dumb bastard, but please point me at it before bowing out.

I think it might be a good idea for you to read the thread again, maybe a little more slowly, paying particular attention to the posts you have not responded to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here you go. It is the post immediately after the one you responded to when you asked for an example. http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=36965.msg1362730#msg1362730

Let me know if that still doesn't make sense.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Yeah, at what point did I say this service was quick? My Service agreements make Scientologly look downright reasonable.

Look, it's simple: If the mark has given you money once, why not try again? Until they stop. Which seems to take 4-5 years.

I sincerely hope you're implying that they could have become actual medical professionals in that timespan.

So you are offering to provide several years of training in something you don't know anything about? That's amazing! And no, unfortunately they couldn't have become actual medical professionals (or certified ones, anyway) in that time: medical school is full time, these things you can do part time, at the weekends, etc. So my comparison was pretty unfair, and I hereby retract it: although people qualifying in the more stringent varieties of alt med do put in a lot of work, it's nowhere near on par with the effort involved in genuinely qualifying as a doctor. Although it is possible and not unheard of for people to qualify as doctors using disingenious methods.

He can make it up as he goes along, just like all the other quack certification programs.

[Dildo Argentino]

Here you go. It is the post immediately after the one you responded to when you asked for an example. http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=36965.msg1362730#msg1362730

Let me know if that still doesn't make sense.

That makes perfect sense! And I think I responded to it. The two metastudies I linked contain 39 studies. One of them contains 33, all of which found some positive effect, and all of which are pronounced to be of low quality. The other one contains 6, 5 of which report a positive effect and is found to be of low quality, 1 is found to be of good quality and reports no effects.

So I think the "at least a couple of" criterion you mention is not met in this case. Or wasn't met as of 2012, anyway.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It is rather marked that you have not responded to any of the longer posts that explain processes and reasoning, Holist. It lends the impression that you are not very interested in thinking the reasoning through, but rather, more interested in argument. If this is just something you are arguing because you enjoy argument, and not because you are seeking knowledge, please let me know so that I can bow out, as I consider that kind of discussion intellectual wankery and a waste of my very limited time.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here you go. It is the post immediately after the one you responded to when you asked for an example. http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=36965.msg1362730#msg1362730

Let me know if that still doesn't make sense.

That makes perfect sense! And I think I responded to it. The two metastudies I linked contain 39 studies. One of them contains 33, all of which found some positive effect, and all of which are pronounced to be of low quality. The other one contains 6, 5 of which report a positive effect and is found to be of low quality, 1 is found to be of good quality and reports no effects.

So I think the "at least a couple of" criterion you mention is not met in this case. Or wasn't met as of 2012, anyway.

And I linked you to a bunch of studies that you can pursue, if you're actually interested. You're the one who initially said that you'd read a couple of studies that showed no evidence that supported it. I haven't read any studies, because I don't care.

So what are you arguing, exactly?

It's pretty clear that if craniosacral massage has an effect, it's not via the claimed mechanism.

I have no position on whether it has an effect, I just stated the typical parameters for pursuing further research, and tried to explain how new discoveries fit into the framework of existing knowledge. Do you want to argue whether or not it has an effect? I don't think either of us has enough information to support a claim either way, so it's just monkey noises.

[Dildo Argentino]

Here you go. It is the post immediately after the one you responded to when you asked for an example. http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=36965.msg1362730#msg1362730

Let me know if that still doesn't make sense.

That makes perfect sense! And I think I responded to it. The two metastudies I linked contain 39 studies. One of them contains 33, all of which found some positive effect, and all of which are pronounced to be of low quality. The other one contains 6, 5 of which report a positive effect and is found to be of low quality, 1 is found to be of good quality and reports no effects.

So I think the "at least a couple of" criterion you mention is not met in this case. Or wasn't met as of 2012, anyway.

And I linked you to a bunch of studies that you can pursue, if you're actually interested. You're the one who initially said that you'd read a couple of studies that showed no evidence that supported it. I haven't read any studies, because I don't care.

Well hey, hang on, this is what I said, in the OP:

I have looked at two metastudies, one from 1999, and one from 1012. Both seem to suggest that there is no evidence that this form of treatment works rather than there is evidence that it doesn't work.

So what are you arguing, exactly?

I am arguing that there is insufficient evidence that it has no effect.

It's pretty clear that if craniosacral massage has an effect, it's not via the claimed mechanism.

Yes, I agree with that.

I have no position on whether it has an effect, I just stated the typical parameters for pursuing further research, and tried to explain how new discoveries fit into the framework of existing knowledge. Do you want to argue whether or not it has an effect? I don't think either of us has enough information to support a claim either way, so it's just monkey noises.

Okay, that's fine. I don't want to argue, I'm interested in whether it has an effect, and if yes, why. I would also be grateful if someone with access could link to the single well-designed study so I could look at it.

[Telarus]

My girlfriend learned cranial "sacral" massage while in accredited massage school in Oregon. No woo attached. No "guessing" why it "worked".

Simply "here are the techniques to safely massage the skull muscles" and "oh, btw the skull bones aren't 'static' like the impression you got every skeleton model you've seen, they're all gently joined by cartilage, etc, and get out of position sometimes, so be careful of how you deal with that".

[Junkenstein]

I've had 4 or 5 sessions with a qualified and certified practitioner

I swear, you'll know when I've gone totally stark staring evil as I'll open up a fucking certification centre for all kinds of shit like this.

It's got to be up there on the scale of evil, taking money of the uniformed to provide a worthless bit of paper certifying them as the Grand High Preist of whatever trendy bullshit is going. Then sending them forth to fleece others on the back of your "Qualification".


Fuck it, why wait?

I WILL CERTIFY ANYONE AS A OFFICIAL QUALIFIED PRACTITIONER OF WHATEVER BULLSHIT WOO YOU CARE TO NAME. ALL PRICES BEATEN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. NO ANSWERS GIVEN. NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR BULLSHIT WOO REQUIRED, I CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THAT FOR YOU.

Ask about our affiliate scheme.

These people train for 4-5 years. That may be sheer masochism, or an extended rite of initiation, but they do.

So do MD's, anyway...

Yeah, at what point did I say this service was quick? My Service agreements make Scientologly look downright reasonable.

So you are offering to provide several years of training in something you don't know anything about? That's amazing! .

Yes Friends, That's EXACTLY RIGHT. I am actually far more suitably qualified and  experienced for this role than any others due to my decades long experience with bullshit.

That's right good people, I can give you better bullshit than the next leading guru or your next session is just half price!

You can't IMAGINE the MINUTES I will spend on wikipedia getting a loose enough grasp and a couple of terms to handwave convincingly.

I even supply my own joss sticks.

If you can find a better training provider in any sphere of bullshit pseudo-science that is better than me, they're just peddling PURE FUCKING HOKUM. You want to solve all your problems by shoving nails in your feet? Your Face? How about the art of gently wringing hands until the situation changes? Maybe you want to know the exact sequence you drizzle various oils on your arse to remove that boil?

The secrets of all these and more can be yours.



Members get a lifetime discount.

[Dildo Argentino]

Sign me up, Mr. Junkenstein!! 

[Dildo Argentino]

My girlfriend learned cranial "sacral" massage while in accredited massage school in Oregon. No woo attached. No "guessing" why it "worked".

Simply "here are the techniques to safely massage the skull muscles" and "oh, btw the skull bones aren't 'static' like the impression you got every skeleton model you've seen, they're all gently joined by cartilage, etc, and get out of position sometimes, so be careful of how you deal with that".

Firstly, it seems craniosacral therapy and cranial osteopathy are distinct but related things, while cranial massage is something rather different.

Secondly (from an article previously linked by LMNO): "After having outlined the theories of cranial osteopathy (SUTHERLAND, KARNI, UPLEDGER, and, more recently, CLAUZADE and DARRAILLANS), the authors refute the latter point by point. "Primary respiration" is in fact a way of thinking, and the various bones making up the calvaria and base of the skull, which are solidly synostosed in the adult, are clearly incapable of the pretended rhythmic displacements "described" by the osteopaths. "

It seems your girlfriend was taught something that's quite contrary to the scientific concensus.

[Junkenstein]

Sign me up, Mr. Junkenstein!! 

Need you bank account details, Sort code and you have to move to the commune that you'll be buying and signing over to me.


It's the deal of a lifetime.

[Junkenstein]

Anyway, 3 pages about slapping people in the head to fix their woes. That's depressing.