Monotheism and Minds: Why Monotheism Is Untenable

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And a Mind speaking by itself does not make any logical sense. Polytheism would have to result, which can be seen in the concept of Elohim, the plural form of God, in Genesis. Talking to yourself makes more sense when you're purely Mind, and able to split up without it being seen as socially transgressive. Hell, it leads to CREATING society.

The specific example given was Abrahamic.

Yes. It was an example. It seems to have been a bit of a blinding one, too.

Well, the premise also assumes that God spoke the universe into existence. I'm not exactly sure how Aten was supposed to have done it

[hooplala]

Oh hell yes, that's the point of spitballing.

I just know that when I toss that phrase around, I am usually warning people that what I'm about to say hasn't been completely thought out in advance.

Carry on!

So does that mean you DON'T want people to pick apart your half-thought-through ideas and tell you what's wrong with them?

What's the benefit in even posting them, if that's the case?

Absolutely not, but the OP is a bit of noob and had been recently trashed in at least one other thread over something fairly insignificant. I just wanted to point out that this wasn't being presented as a fully thought out thesis.

[Doktor Howl]

And a Mind speaking by itself does not make any logical sense. Polytheism would have to result, which can be seen in the concept of Elohim, the plural form of God, in Genesis. Talking to yourself makes more sense when you're purely Mind, and able to split up without it being seen as socially transgressive. Hell, it leads to CREATING society.

The specific example given was Abrahamic.

Yes. It was an example. It seems to have been a bit of a blinding one, too.

Well, the premise also assumes that God spoke the universe into existence. I'm not exactly sure how Aten was supposed to have done it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

Apparently, he turned it off and on again. 

[LMNO]

So, let's go over some of the points, then.

We have not observed minds being mindful in isolation

Is this true?  Have there been experiments where subjects were put in isolation tanks, and subsequently stopped being Mindful?*

*Also, what constitutes "being mindful"?

A mind thinks in language and behaves via reason

Nigel has already pointed out the first half of this is a dubious proposition, and I'll suggest that the second half is also suspect; rationality is HARD, and rarely does it manage behavior.

But what use is language in isolation? Language NEEDS someone to listen, as well as someone to speak.

This, I feel, has some weight behind it.  I can't easily think of an example where language is used for something other than communication.  Even if taking notes for personal use later on is a form of communication for one's self.  Could a language naturally develop in isolation without the purpose of communication?

Therefore, God speaking creation into existence cannot be tenable. For whatever else you define God as, apart from the paradoxes of omnipotence and omniscience, God is Mind preceding Matter. SINGLE Mind.

I believe others have spoken to this point.  However, since we're essentially creating the characteristics of an unknowable and untestable entity, we may have some leeway.  Perhaps, instead of "for whatever else.." we replace it with "if we definie God as..." That way, you're setting up the boundaries of the proposition. 

Although, then we would need to have an example of a theology that does posit a single creator that was an isolated Mind before Matter.  Otherwise, you'll need to come up with a complete cosmology that ultimately doesn't bear much resemblance to commonly held religious beliefs.

And a Mind speaking by itself does not make any logical sense.

This seems to hold water, as suggested by the above quote regarding language.

Polytheism would have to result, which can be seen in the concept of Elohim, the plural form of God, in Genesis.

I see, so the reference to YHWH was an example against an isolated creator Mind.

Talking to yourself makes more sense when you're purely Mind, and able to split up without it being seen as socially transgressive. Hell, it leads to CREATING society.

I think this needs to be fleshed out more.  I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're getting at, here.

[Doktor Howl]

Oh hell yes, that's the point of spitballing.

I just know that when I toss that phrase around, I am usually warning people that what I'm about to say hasn't been completely thought out in advance.

Carry on!

So does that mean you DON'T want people to pick apart your half-thought-through ideas and tell you what's wrong with them?

What's the benefit in even posting them, if that's the case?

Absolutely not, but the OP is a bit of noob and had been recently trashed in at least one other thread over something fairly insignificant. I just wanted to point out that this wasn't being presented as a fully thought out thesis.

This is why we issue hard hats at the door.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And a Mind speaking by itself does not make any logical sense. Polytheism would have to result, which can be seen in the concept of Elohim, the plural form of God, in Genesis. Talking to yourself makes more sense when you're purely Mind, and able to split up without it being seen as socially transgressive. Hell, it leads to CREATING society.

The specific example given was Abrahamic.

Yes. It was an example. It seems to have been a bit of a blinding one, too.

Well, the premise also assumes that God spoke the universe into existence. I'm not exactly sure how Aten was supposed to have done it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

Apparently, he turned it off and on again.

[hooplala]

Oh hell yes, that's the point of spitballing.

I just know that when I toss that phrase around, I am usually warning people that what I'm about to say hasn't been completely thought out in advance.

Carry on!

So does that mean you DON'T want people to pick apart your half-thought-through ideas and tell you what's wrong with them?

What's the benefit in even posting them, if that's the case?

Absolutely not, but the OP is a bit of noob and had been recently trashed in at least one other thread over something fairly insignificant. I just wanted to point out that this wasn't being presented as a fully thought out thesis.

This is why we issue hard hats at the door.

All I got was a beanie with a propeller.

[Doktor Howl]

Oh hell yes, that's the point of spitballing.

I just know that when I toss that phrase around, I am usually warning people that what I'm about to say hasn't been completely thought out in advance.

Carry on!

So does that mean you DON'T want people to pick apart your half-thought-through ideas and tell you what's wrong with them?

What's the benefit in even posting them, if that's the case?

Absolutely not, but the OP is a bit of noob and had been recently trashed in at least one other thread over something fairly insignificant. I just wanted to point out that this wasn't being presented as a fully thought out thesis.

This is why we issue hard hats at the door.

All I got was a beanie with a propeller.

That was back in the day, before regulation.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh hell yes, that's the point of spitballing.

I just know that when I toss that phrase around, I am usually warning people that what I'm about to say hasn't been completely thought out in advance.

Carry on!

So does that mean you DON'T want people to pick apart your half-thought-through ideas and tell you what's wrong with them?

What's the benefit in even posting them, if that's the case?

Absolutely not, but the OP is a bit of noob and had been recently trashed in at least one other thread over something fairly insignificant. I just wanted to point out that this wasn't being presented as a fully thought out thesis.

Is this one an actual noob? Or is it one of the "I used to post here and then I left and then I came back" folks?

I can't keep them straight, and apparently I'm only allowed to talk to some of them like adult human beings.

[Telarus]

I understood the OP as saying language only works when it is a medium to carry information from Mind A to Mind B, and so the idea that "God" would be able to think by itself, in the way we conceive, let alone communicate, isn't tenable... and being able to speak the world into existence is even less likely. 

Perhaps I misunderst as well.

But LMNO is right. The Torah never claims JHVH is the only god.

Good points. Oh, and Mind A and Mind B do not have to be in the same space-time frame... I.E. Language can be used to "time-bind" (in the RAW-Leary sense) by binding information onto physical media to be reviewed later i.e by transmitting it into the future.

[hooplala]

Oh hell yes, that's the point of spitballing.

I just know that when I toss that phrase around, I am usually warning people that what I'm about to say hasn't been completely thought out in advance.

Carry on!

So does that mean you DON'T want people to pick apart your half-thought-through ideas and tell you what's wrong with them?

What's the benefit in even posting them, if that's the case?

Absolutely not, but the OP is a bit of noob and had been recently trashed in at least one other thread over something fairly insignificant. I just wanted to point out that this wasn't being presented as a fully thought out thesis.

Is this one an actual noob? Or is it one of the "I used to post here and then I left and then I came back" folks?

I can't keep them straight, and apparently I'm only allowed to talk to some of them like adult human beings.

I'm not sure if this news to you Nigel, but you're not exactly known for your bedside manner.

Forget I said anything, carry on, as you were. I'm out.

[Doktor Howl]

1.  He isn't a noob.

2.  Crapping all over people as they walk in the door is a time-honored tradition here on PD, and Nigel is the LEAST guilty of this, in most cases. 

3.  Nigel's bedside manner is more akin to Lemmy than House.  "IT MIGHT BE LUPUS.  HERE, SNORT THIS BUCKET OF COCAINE."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh hell yes, that's the point of spitballing.

I just know that when I toss that phrase around, I am usually warning people that what I'm about to say hasn't been completely thought out in advance.

Carry on!

So does that mean you DON'T want people to pick apart your half-thought-through ideas and tell you what's wrong with them?

What's the benefit in even posting them, if that's the case?

Absolutely not, but the OP is a bit of noob and had been recently trashed in at least one other thread over something fairly insignificant. I just wanted to point out that this wasn't being presented as a fully thought out thesis.

Is this one an actual noob? Or is it one of the "I used to post here and then I left and then I came back" folks?

I can't keep them straight, and apparently I'm only allowed to talk to some of them like adult human beings.

I'm not sure if this news to you Nigel, but you're not exactly known for your bedside manner.

Forget I said anything, carry on, as you were. I'm out.

I would LOVE to hear the voice in your head that you read my posts in, as you seem to find them remarkably more abrasive, by default, than most people seem to.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

1.  He isn't a noob.

2.  Crapping all over people as they walk in the door is a time-honored tradition here on PD, and Nigel is the LEAST guilty of this, in most cases. 

3.  Nigel's bedside manner is more akin to Lemmy than House.  "IT MIGHT BE LUPUS.  HERE, SNORT THIS BUCKET OF COCAINE."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think Hoops and I could have some good conversations, if he could just get over his apparent hard-on for Telling Nigel To Be Nice.

Hoops, I have to tell you, I might say things people don't want to hear, but I haven't actually been a mean bastard since around May 2011.