The Trans Discussion

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What the fucking shit?!?!?!!?

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/calling-bruce-jenner-a-woman-is-an-insult-to-women/

Just wait until The Blaze discovers trans-exclusionary radical feminism.  Their minds will explode.

This SERIOUSLY makes me want to start a #notallfeminists campaign.

TERFs are great fun on FB.

What are TERFs?

[rong]

Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists?

[minuspace]

i'm just trying to digest all this.

it makes sense to separate gender and sex.  that is, a male can choose to identify as man or woman (or, perhaps - certain degrees of man-ness or woman-ness) and a female can also choose to identify as woman or man (again, to certain degrees).

a male (or female) choosing to identify as anything other than man (or woman) is considered to be transgendered.

(i now realize that it might not be appropriate to use the word "choose" as the individual may not really have a choice).

since gender is a social construct, identifying as the "non-socially acceptable" gender should not be considered a medical disorder (although I think you could argue it may be a psychological disorder??  is there such a thing as a sociological disorder??)



also, a male can identify as a female and a female can identify as a male.  this would be considered to be transexual.

again, the individual may or may not have a choice.


given that the mind is an emergent property of the body (a notion i'm not sure I fully agree with  . . .) I would think there is a connection between the body's natural hormone production and the mind's (brain's?) reaction and development.


i guess what i'm having a hard time with is how, in this context, transexualism is still not a disorder.

as Nigel stated, and others agreed with -

2. No, I don't think it's a disorder, outside of the social sense. In other words, it is not a pathology.
3. Yes, I think it is probably biological.

how can it be biological without a pathology?

.
.
.

i haven't read any Jenner interviews, but I imagine the following hypothetical:

Suppose Jenner, being an athlete under tremendous pressure to perform well, began to take large amounts of steroids.
The steroid abuse then caused his body to simultaneously stop producing testosterone and increase it's estrogen production (I believe this is a side effect of steroid abuse).
Olympics are over and steroid abuse stops, however the body never fully resumes "normal" hormone production.
Jenner begins to feel more and more female... transexual.

is this not a disorder?

Just jumping in here, clearly, got some thoughts that may or not be applicable.

I heard about the bolded above, in different contexts, however, when regarding professionals, any steroid cycle is followed by appropriate PCT (post cycle therapy) including SERMs (Selective Esteogen Reuptake Modulators).  If not for safety alone, PCT remains nescesary to avoid secondary signs of doping.

That being said, the point is that there seems to be a systemic problem of identity manifesting itself quite determinately now.  Instead of dealing with it, we are putting it up on display, like the feature of a freak show.

Not meaning to pontificate, just throwing my hat in the ring.

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

"Transgenderism Kills Feminism

As conservatives and Christians have run away terrified by the prospect of having meaningless words like transphobic tossed at them, it might ultimately be, in a strange twist of fate, the feminists who take down the "transgender" narrative. If they ever figure out that "transgenderism" is a direct assault on their entire worldview, maybe it will prompt a full fledged civil war in the progressive ranks.

After all, according to mainstream feminist wisdom, there is no such thing as a "female brain" or a "female soul" or "feeling like a female." By the words of every liberal who has ever said anything on the subject of women's rights in the past four decades, how you dress, look, think, and feel have nothing to do with your womanhood. Usually it would be offensive and sexist to accuse a woman of acting like, thinking like, or feeling like a woman.

Yet now, suddenly, emotions and looks define a woman so severely that a man can actually become one if he claims to experience feelings that he assumes are feminine?

The whole thing contradicts itself.

Feminism and transgenderism say two opposing things about what it means to be a woman. In fact, feminists have come up with the term "neurosexism" to condemn the misogynistic and "pseudo-scientific" idea that male and females brains are different. But Bruce Jenner claims he has "the brain of a female," so how does this work? Do you mean to tell me that the only people who can have female brains are males?

Meanwhile, feminists regularly insist that the absence of a uterus and a vagina excludes men from having an opinion about things like abortion. So a man can't have ideas about women's issues because he lacks the correct anatomy, but he can actually be a woman despite lacking the correct anatomy?

How does that make any kind of sense?

Transgenderism and feminism cannot coexist. Progressives can't have both.

They'll just have to choose."

What the fucking shit?!?!?!!?

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/calling-bruce-jenner-a-woman-is-an-insult-to-women/

The two narratives do indeed contradict each other on many points. Anybody who can't see that is doing some serious doublethink.

At least one must be at least partly false and/or partly meaningless.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

The strawman one. Oh, wait, they're both strawmen because you refuse to actually engage the issues and would rather argue from ignorance.

[Cain]

Or it's entirely possible that an argument put forward by a conservative website set up by notorious idiot Glenn Beck is not presenting at least one, if not both, of the arguments fairly.

Hmm, who to trust?  Matt Walsh, a 27 year old highly socially conservative blogger with no expertise in political or gender theory and is so infamously wrong about everything he has a blog devoted just to debunking his bullshit, or someone like Julia Serrano?

Edit: QG beat me to it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Trans people DO have unique issues when it comes to feminism, privilege, and where they stand in discussions of reproductive freedom and gender equality.

But that's a different topic entirely from whether the experience of being transgender is legitimate, as well as whether there are biological bases for the experience, and whether these bases should be considered a disorder.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

A sure sign that someone isn't exactly sure why they don't like something and don't have a good argument for not liking it is when they start to flail, wildly bringing in tangential arguments in the hope that one of them will stick.

This is starting to remind me of arguing with a religious fundamentalist.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Meanwhile, on Facebook...

[Cain]

I've often considered going through years of therapy, expensive hormone and surgical treatment and facing the possible ostracism of everyone close to me, not to mention having an entire nation freak out over becoming a woman, simply for the sake of publicity.

I'd get mad media coverage, for sure.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I've often considered going through years of therapy, expensive hormone and surgical treatment and facing the possible ostracism of everyone close to me, not to mention having an entire nation freak out over becoming a woman, simply for the sake of publicity.

I'd get mad media coverage, for sure.

I like the part where he calls me government brainwashed sheeple, unaware that I'm married to a dude on every watch list and have actively supported at least four people the government wants locked up for calling out their bullshit.

[Cain]

Hah, I skipped over that bit the first time.

Yeah, the media totally wants us to concentrate on one woman.  Americans were worshipping the troops bravery too much, you see.  It was totally going to bring the whole system down.  But then the media dangles someone's transition in front of us, and we lose our minds.

WAKE UP SHEEPLE.

[Reginald Ret]

I've often considered going through years of therapy, expensive hormone and surgical treatment and facing the possible ostracism of everyone close to me, not to mention having an entire nation freak out over becoming a woman, simply for the sake of publicity.

I'd get mad media coverage, for sure.

I like the part where he calls me government brainwashed sheeple, unaware that I'm married to a dude on every watch list and have actively supported at least four people the government wants locked up for calling out their bullshit.

His lack of interpunction offends me.
People who can't form sentences can't be expected to form thoughts.
Thoughts, like sentences, have a beginning, middle, and end.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I've often considered going through years of therapy, expensive hormone and surgical treatment and facing the possible ostracism of everyone close to me, not to mention having an entire nation freak out over becoming a woman, simply for the sake of publicity.

I'd get mad media coverage, for sure.

I like the part where he calls me government brainwashed sheeple, unaware that I'm married to a dude on every watch list and have actively supported at least four people the government wants locked up for calling out their bullshit.

His lack of interpunction offends me.
People who can't form sentences can't be expected to form thoughts.
Thoughts, like sentences, have a beginning, middle, and end.

It took every ounce of control not to correct him as we went, but it was my cousin's post and I was trying to be nice.

[Reginald Ret]

I've often considered going through years of therapy, expensive hormone and surgical treatment and facing the possible ostracism of everyone close to me, not to mention having an entire nation freak out over becoming a woman, simply for the sake of publicity.

I'd get mad media coverage, for sure.

I like the part where he calls me government brainwashed sheeple, unaware that I'm married to a dude on every watch list and have actively supported at least four people the government wants locked up for calling out their bullshit.

His lack of interpunction offends me.
People who can't form sentences can't be expected to form thoughts.
Thoughts, like sentences, have a beginning, middle, and end.

It took every ounce of control not to correct him as we went, but it was my cousin's post and I was trying to be nice.

I feel for you, and am impressed with your restraint.
Also, my own misuse of comma's offends me.

I may be offended too easily.