Open Bar: We hacked the DNC and all we got are these lousy emails

[LMNO]

"I respect that you either agree with a sexist, racist president, or at the very least don't care that he is, or what that means for minorities."


I'm not sure that's right.

[Vanadium Gryllz]

"I respect that you either agree with a sexist, racist president, or at the very least don't care that he is, or what that means for minorities."


I'm not sure that's right.

I think there's a difference between treating an individual respectfully and actually respecting their ideas.
See: the remarkable turnaround of all the other world leaders since Trump won. They went from full on attack mode to "Oh yeah we can definitely get along." They probably don't think he was the best option but treating him like the asshole that he is is probably only going to make things worse.

edit: I do agree with you that racism and sexism is a problem and it's probably going to get worse. I am not defending the Trumpster or implying that people should ignore/encourage hateful behaviour when they see it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And now Leonard Cohen has up and died on us. I fucking hate 2016. Its like the whole damned year has been entirely made of Februaries 

Yep.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"I respect that you either agree with a sexist, racist president, or at the very least don't care that he is, or what that means for minorities."


I'm not sure that's right.

I think there's a difference between treating an individual respectfully and actually respecting their ideas.
See: the remarkable turnaround of all the other world leaders since Trump won. They went from full on attack mode to "Oh yeah we can definitely get along." They probably don't think he was the best option but treating him like the asshole that he is is probably only going to make things worse.

edit: I do agree with you that racism and sexism is a problem and it's probably going to get worse. I am not defending the Trumpster or implying that people should ignore/encourage hateful behaviour when they see it.

I think that for an awful lot of people, part of the way they define "treating them with respect" is actually ignoring hateful behavior from them when you see it. The #1 thing I have seen them get upset about is having racism and misogyny respectfully pointed out. They flip out, insist that they are not "a racist", and accuse you of calling them a monster.

[Vanadium Gryllz]

"I respect that you either agree with a sexist, racist president, or at the very least don't care that he is, or what that means for minorities."


I'm not sure that's right.

I think there's a difference between treating an individual respectfully and actually respecting their ideas.
See: the remarkable turnaround of all the other world leaders since Trump won. They went from full on attack mode to "Oh yeah we can definitely get along." They probably don't think he was the best option but treating him like the asshole that he is is probably only going to make things worse.

edit: I do agree with you that racism and sexism is a problem and it's probably going to get worse. I am not defending the Trumpster or implying that people should ignore/encourage hateful behaviour when they see it.

I think that for an awful lot of people, part of the way they define "treating them with respect" is actually ignoring hateful behavior from them when you see it. The #1 thing I have seen them get upset about is having racism and misogyny respectfully pointed out. They flip out, insist that they are not "a racist", and accuse you of calling them a monster.

That's an interesting point. I suppose when someone stops acting civilly they also give up their right to being respected. I can't deny there are a lot of people out there who need a good thorough Nigelling.

[LMNO]

Thanks, Nigel. I'm having a hard time making the distinction between "I'm racist" and "I'm comfortable voting for someone who has racist policies".

[Salty]

At the root of the difficulties of the larger discussion of racism in America, in my opinion, is the ignoring of the scale.

Unintended Paternalism, common stereotypes, not listening to PoC<-------------------->White Supremacy/Genocide/etc.

Side A of the scale is what we usually deal with when discussing these things on FB and such, with friends of friends. We could, as has been done, call it "Little r racism".

Side B is what we are all very afraid of and is the logical conclusion of not caring about people that aren't just like you, if you're white/hetero-normative/etc. With or without intent. "Big R Racism"

When you use the word racist, in my experience, 9/10 people assume you mean Side B. They can't get past that, and they're offended that anyone would think that way about them. Actual pigfucking WS and such are obviously not included in this confusion, and Side A people just can't see the difference.

[Freeky]

There's a really good quote in Terry Pratchett's Jingo about just that, let me see if I can dig it up.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What Alty said, and also that thing I've been harping on about racist not being a noun. Racism is a set of attitudes and ideas, many of which people can hold without even knowing it. In its most common form, racism is evident whenever it simply doesn't occur to a white person that any other person might have a different set of life experiences. The racism of simply disregarding other people because they aren't important to you is the most common type of racism.

[P3nT4gR4m]

"I respect that you either agree with a sexist, racist president, or at the very least don't care that he is, or what that means for minorities."


I'm not sure that's right.

I think there's a difference between treating an individual respectfully and actually respecting their ideas.
See: the remarkable turnaround of all the other world leaders since Trump won. They went from full on attack mode to "Oh yeah we can definitely get along." They probably don't think he was the best option but treating him like the asshole that he is is probably only going to make things worse.

edit: I do agree with you that racism and sexism is a problem and it's probably going to get worse. I am not defending the Trumpster or implying that people should ignore/encourage hateful behaviour when they see it.

I think that for an awful lot of people, part of the way they define "treating them with respect" is actually ignoring hateful behavior from them when you see it. The #1 thing I have seen them get upset about is having racism and misogyny respectfully pointed out. They flip out, insist that they are not "a racist", and accuse you of calling them a monster.

Smart player will choose their battles. You can either call out a racist which will generally accomplish nothing, probably even get them to dig in deeper or you can buy them a tasty curry and let the cognitive dissonance percolate. Sure it's a long game and it's frustrating but the only surefire quick way I know to change someone's mind involves stamping on their skull.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"I respect that you either agree with a sexist, racist president, or at the very least don't care that he is, or what that means for minorities."


I'm not sure that's right.

I think there's a difference between treating an individual respectfully and actually respecting their ideas.
See: the remarkable turnaround of all the other world leaders since Trump won. They went from full on attack mode to "Oh yeah we can definitely get along." They probably don't think he was the best option but treating him like the asshole that he is is probably only going to make things worse.

edit: I do agree with you that racism and sexism is a problem and it's probably going to get worse. I am not defending the Trumpster or implying that people should ignore/encourage hateful behaviour when they see it.

I think that for an awful lot of people, part of the way they define "treating them with respect" is actually ignoring hateful behavior from them when you see it. The #1 thing I have seen them get upset about is having racism and misogyny respectfully pointed out. They flip out, insist that they are not "a racist", and accuse you of calling them a monster.

Smart player will choose their battles. You can either call out a racist which will generally accomplish nothing, probably even get them to dig in deeper or you can buy them a tasty curry and let the cognitive dissonance percolate. Sure it's a long game and it's frustrating but the only surefire quick way I know to change someone's mind involves stamping on their skull.

Doesn't seem to be working so far, and bears an awful lot of resemblance to keeping your head down and not complaining, which also, historically speaking, is a remarkably ineffective method of combating bad ideas.

Look at the young people. Who yells the loudest about how shitty racism and misogyny are? Young people. Among whom is misogyny and racism at its lowest? Young people.

[Salty]

"I respect that you either agree with a sexist, racist president, or at the very least don't care that he is, or what that means for minorities."


I'm not sure that's right.

I think there's a difference between treating an individual respectfully and actually respecting their ideas.
See: the remarkable turnaround of all the other world leaders since Trump won. They went from full on attack mode to "Oh yeah we can definitely get along." They probably don't think he was the best option but treating him like the asshole that he is is probably only going to make things worse.

edit: I do agree with you that racism and sexism is a problem and it's probably going to get worse. I am not defending the Trumpster or implying that people should ignore/encourage hateful behaviour when they see it.

I think that for an awful lot of people, part of the way they define "treating them with respect" is actually ignoring hateful behavior from them when you see it. The #1 thing I have seen them get upset about is having racism and misogyny respectfully pointed out. They flip out, insist that they are not "a racist", and accuse you of calling them a monster.

Smart player will choose their battles. You can either call out a racist which will generally accomplish nothing, probably even get them to dig in deeper or you can buy them a tasty curry and let the cognitive dissonance percolate. Sure it's a long game and it's frustrating but the only surefire quick way I know to change someone's mind involves stamping on their skull.

That method seems to be doing wonders for the UK.

[LMNO]

We may all want to re-read The Autobiography of Malcom X.  He had a lot to say about "keeping quiet about it".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Turns out, if you just play nice and pick your battles, they take it as validation that they're doing just fine. They even "have black friends" who "don't complain", and women friends who "laugh at their jokes".

Almost 100% of the time, the people telling women and people of color that we need to play nice and pick our battles are white men.

Go figure.

[Freeky]

There's a really good quote in Terry Pratchett's Jingo about just that, let me see if I can dig it up.

How the Moderate Person on fb thinks:

"It was much better to imagine men in some smokey room somewhere, made mad and cynical by privilege and power, plotting over brandy. You had to cling to this sort of image, because if you didn't then you might have to face the fact that bad things happened because ordinary people, the kind who brushed the dog and told the children bed time stories, were capable of then going out and doing horrible things to other ordinary people. It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was Us, then what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things."

Fuckin' love me some Terry Pratchett.

In any case, it's hard to convince people who refuse to see that sometimes they act racist because they don't think they're racist, and get all offended and then #AllLivesMatter and "not all men."  Discouraging.