ITT, We whine about how bad humanity is (especially white peoples), and rip off

[AFK]

Well, I will gladly and humbly acknowledge it if the day comes.  Until then, based on my experiences, I simply call bullshit.

Back it up, then.  You're the one betting against technology, time to show your cards.

Please to reread where I say "based on my experiences"  and then read where I say "I will gladly and humbly acknowledge..." etc., etc.,  

My experiences in composing and playing music, with analog and digital, instruments and computers, has shown me that you can't get my concept of soul in computerized music. Again, I'm not arguing that you can't make music on a computer.  I'm not arguing that you can't make "good" music on a computer.  I'm arguing you can't, at least currently, reproduce the human element in music on a computer.  Again, if machines are ever able to do that, I will acknowledge it.  Even then, though, I would still prefer to do it myself with the instrument in my hand.  

[LMNO]

ooo, they aren't really vitual input devices, they're MIDI devices.  The parameters set into each drum are finite, and nowhere near as complex as an acoustic drum.

They do not "calculate what the air vibrations would be", they trigger pre-recorded sounds, combined with digital effect processing.

You can even program them to play a different kind of instrument entirely, depending on how hard you hit them.  For example, you can set it that a velocity interpreted as -25 would trigger a kick drum sound, while a velocity of 70-128 would trigger a cymbal sound.


The problem comes again when the person building the MIDI system has to decide how many variations of a drum sound they want to load into the system, and how each sound would respond to each set of trigger parameters.

[Triple Zero]

LMNO: well, the input devices are there (recording how hard you hit and where you hit them) and the physical models are there as well, so i wonder why no one has put those together yet?

though you are right, i think the ones that i saw sounded pretty sampled as well. still cool devices though. and it SHOULD be possible to hook them up to a physical model.
MIDI is just a stream of time, velocity (and position?) data, and it depends on the synthesizer to convert that data into sounds..

hm MIDI .. that's a long time ago they're *still* using that, right? i mean, it's from the beginning of the 80s, afaik?

RWHN:
i will just repeat shortly here. that all depends on the input-devices you use. if you have an input device that leaves as much room for variation and style as a guitar would, you could -with practice- get it to sound as soulful as you could a guitar.

on the other hand if you just set notes and sounds in a sequencer, of course it will sound digital and rigid (which can be a good thing, but it's a different thing).

you could kind of compare it to

- drawing by putting pixels one by one on the screen
- drawing with your mouse
- drawing with a drawing tablet
- drawing with a pressure/angle sensitive drawing tablet
- actually taking a brush on a piece of paper

given a good computer and a good piece of software, the last two are practically equivalent (except that drawing software isn't that much aiming towards actually recreating all the texture and brushstrokes of actual painting, because most people tend to prefer the "cleaner" features of computer drawing, but there is indeed software available that can simulate oil or aquarel painting like this, it's just no photoshop)

[LMNO]

000:  simply put, latency.

The amount of time it takes to interpret the strike, calculate the proper algorhthm, and generate the sound would take several hundred milliseconds, which would create a noticable gap between the strike and the sound.

Even in on-board computer sound processors (reverb, compression, etc) have a built-in latency corrector that calculates how many milliseconds a process will take, and then delays the original track to correct it.

Second, MIDI is simply a protocol.  It's a language written in Hexidecimal that allows two different devices to speak with each other, which is why you can use a drum pad with several different sound modules.

Third, that drum pad still needs discrete values in order to operate, which creates buit-in limitations.

[AFK]

000, I suppose, eventually, what you say will be possible.  Sort of like a MIDI guitar maybe.  But, still, for the kind of music I do, it's hard to conceptualize it.  I employ feedback, the strange buzzes and vibrations a guitar string can make, e-bows, etc.  It just seems like the amount of variations a machine or computer would have to mimic are a mountain, not a mole-hill. 

[Triple Zero]

- i know how MIDI works, i once built a simple software synthesizer that is able to respond to MIDI

- latency is bullshit. it's simply a function directly related to processing power, and a current day 2GHz machine would be ample to pull this off. it gets tricky once you want to simulate multiple instruments at once. also, Moore's law will function for at least 10 more years.

- MIDI has 128 levels of velocity recording, i agree these values should be upgraded from 7bit (128) to 16bit (65536) but that should be enough. change of protocol, not processing power.

but ok, the hardware apparently isn't there yet, and it will take some trouble just to make it work from the stuff available now.

i totally think people should try it though

[LMNO]

I agree it's possible, but I'm much more fascinated in making electronic drums sound like instruments that are physically impossible than trying to emulate a real drum.

For example, you could make a drumset out of samples of striking various empty water towers with a sledgehammer.

Imagine playing 6 different 5-story watertowers with sledgehammers, all in the comfort of your own room.

Why do what's already done?

[AFK]

Man, if I ever move to Boston, you and I need to start a band.

I like your ideas!

[P3nT4gR4m]

I agree it's possible, but I'm much more fascinated in making electronic drums sound like instruments that are physically impossible than trying to emulate a real drum.

For example, you could make a drumset out of samples of striking various empty water towers with a sledgehammer.

Imagine playing 6 different 5-story watertowers with sledgehammers, all in the comfort of your own room.

Why do what's already done?

Well said. Also, outside the digital sphere, there's a kind of plateau been hit with which actual instruments are played. I been looking forward to a new thing for a while now that could take it's place alongside guitar, keyboard, woodwind or brass .... People invent the occasional new thing but most of them are kinda based on existing models. I'd love to have a go on something that was destined to be as popular as the piano in the near future.

[B_M_W]

000:  simply put, latency.

The amount of time it takes to interpret the strike, calculate the proper algorhthm, and generate the sound would take several hundred milliseconds, which would create a noticable gap between the strike and the sound.

Even in on-board computer sound processors (reverb, compression, etc) have a built-in latency corrector that calculates how many milliseconds a process will take, and then delays the original track to correct it.

Second, MIDI is simply a protocol.  It's a language written in Hexidecimal that allows two different devices to speak with each other, which is why you can use a drum pad with several different sound modules.

Third, that drum pad still needs discrete values in order to operate, which creates buit-in limitations.

The brain IS faster than computer. And capable of higher levels of creativity.

Synthetic will NEVER be as good as organic. You may be able to get some use outta it, but a computer 'musician' will never equal a human one.

[AFK]

Well said. Also, outside the digital sphere, there's a kind of plateau been hit with which actual instruments are played. I been looking forward to a new thing for a while now that could take it's place alongside guitar, keyboard, woodwind or brass .... People invent the occasional new thing but most of them are kinda based on existing models. I'd love to have a go on something that was destined to be as popular as the piano in the near future.

I  disagree with the second sentence, to a degree.  I would agree that in popular music it probably seems that way.  But, that's because there are a whole slew of instruments that popular music doesn't consider, or employ very often.  Have you ever heard a ululator in popular music?  Probably not. How about bagpipes?  Dulcimers, a very beautiful instrument, could be used more often.  There's a whole world of musical instruments that you rarely hear in the mainstream music arena.  That's not to say, however, that new instruments aren't good.  I just believe that there is a whole world beyond the guitar/bass/drum set convention that has not been fully explored by enough musicians, or at least, the ones that manage to get their music beyond their garage and the local dive.  

[Triple Zero]

I agree it's possible, but I'm much more fascinated in making electronic drums sound like instruments that are physically impossible than trying to emulate a real drum.

For example, you could make a drumset out of samples of striking various empty water towers with a sledgehammer.

Imagine playing 6 different 5-story watertowers with sledgehammers, all in the comfort of your own room.

Why do what's already done?

definitely! :-D

also i would like to take the moment to point out that - in the same way as you aren't a synth hater - i mostly agree that it is at the very least very infeasible to simulate real instruments exactly on a computer, especially if you want to simulate a complete guitar band.
i was mostly responding because i really disagreed with the arguments used why it would be possible/impossible. you know how it is
whether it is in fact possible or not, i'm not sure, it's an interesting discussion. don't underestimate what technology can do these days. but on the other hand i'm quite sure that once you get the tech out of the way, there are some other problems you'll run in to.

and that it's a LOT of effort, especially considering if you're starting out from the idea it might be a good way to avoid clean microphone recording hassles

also, Felix: the wordt "robot" does not mean slave. it means "worker". as you probably know it comes from an old theatre play (either turkish or russian, i forgot). the phrase was "ja tvoi sluga, ja tvoi rabotnik" which means "i'm your slave, i'm your worker", "sluga" of course meaning slave, and "rabotnik" worker. (the text is featured in the song "The Robots" by Kraftwerk, at least the remastered version on the "The Mix" album)

[Jasper]

The brain IS faster than computer. And capable of higher levels of creativity.

Synthetic will NEVER be as good as organic. You may be able to get some use outta it, but a computer 'musician' will never equal a human one.

1. For now.

2. For now.

[Jasper]

Really, I thought it was from Karel Kapek's RUR, where the term originated and means "compulsory labor", which translates to me as slave.

[LMNO]

I will also concede that much of my initial argument was ideology vs practicality.

Example:  There is no argument that a clean $50 guitar sounds waaaaay different than a $500 guitar.

However, when you plug both of them to a marshall stack with 3 distortion pedals maxed out...


In the same way, most drum machines work in the same realm.  You want a drum beat, no one will really listen to it, you can bury it in the mix.  I don't really deed 5000 snare drum options, because who the fuck will really notice?

What people notice is the mechanical rhythm, and that can be fixed by locking the tempo to the analog track.  it's the easiest way to add the "human" element to the mix.  The above "relax" track I wrote is a perfect example.  I set the MIDI track to map the guitar rhythm/tempo, which varied a few BPM from measure to measure.

The casual listener couldn't tell, but they could feel it.