BIP vs Palm Tree Garden

[barumunk]

Philip K. Dick's "Black Iron Prison", the state of existence in which we all exist until we are able to undergo "anamnesis", the loss of forgetfulness and experience to the concept of gnosis, or completeness. This cosmology, which is based on early Christian gnostic thinking was outlined in his novel "Valis".

For Dick the opposite of the "Black Iron Prison" is the "Palm Tree Garden".

... is it the opposite, or the inverse  (meaning the same thing) ????

[barumunk]

There's this one scene in a Simpson's episode [...]. It features Snake, the stereotypical criminal, in the exercise yard at a minimum security prison. Homer drives by in Snake's old sports-car, which he bought at a police auction, and which he's now abusing quite badly. Hearing this, Snake decides to escape and rescue his car. He walks to the gate, and opens it and walks out. It's unlocked. All it has was a sign that says "NO ESCAPING PLEASE" on it. Snake exclaims: "Screw the honor system! My car needs me!" and runs off. Kearney, who is working out nearby in the exercise yard sees this and yells out: "Hey, you're ruining it for the rest of us!"

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/05/29/the-minimum-security-black-iron-prison/

[LMNO]

in answer to your posts:

1.  We totally ripped the BIP phrase off of PKD.  However, we took it in a different direction.  If you are going to use Phil's metaphor, please refer to it as BIP_PKD.



2.  Great scene. 

[barumunk]

yeah i realized the phase is from there (wasnt "pointng that out" ) , but i was wonderin if his "Palm tree garden" would be a similar concept to the Golden Sphere of Possibility idea?

but as you said, you took it in another direction... (not just elaborated/fleshed out???)

sorry maybe im just thinking aloud

[LMNO]

Well, I don't think PTG would be the GSP, because it's a metaphor for exactly the same thing as the BIP.

Now, if you want to posit that the PTG is just another way of looking at the BIP_PKD, then you may have something there.  But you're gonna need more supporting evidence.  And no, blogs don't count.

[barumunk]

hahahahahaha

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think the main difference between the PKD philosophy and the current incarnation of the BiP here appears to me as one of optimism. PKD, you see, seems to think we can escape the BiP. Many of the comments and discussions around here seem to posit that breaking out of the Prison, just leads to a slightly different, maybe larger prison cell. "You can break out any time you want, but you can never leave" sort of thing. The GSP, from what I understand might be described as a more absurdist and silly interpretation of that same philosophical viewpoint.

Personally, I disagree with that theory (and I'm sure many others might disagree with how I perceive the philosophical concept, or disagree with the concept whole cloth). For me, the BiP and the Curse of Greyface are very similar... as the restriction of one's single view of reality, or maybe an inability to understand disorder as well as they understand order. While I agree that we are never fully free of the Curse or the Prison, I do think that once we begin manipulating our own perceptions and realize that our view of reality appears as AN interpretation rather than Truth anf Fact... we escape the Black Iron Prison and we throw off the Curse of Greyface. Not that I think we ever gain total freedom... but escaping the BiP seems like escaping Chapel Perilous... you can escape, but you often end up back inside at some point.

However, thats the way of models and maps and metaphors... they're all true in some sense, false in some sense and meaningless in some sense, no?

[LMNO]

Rat, what I find interesting is that the way you see the BIP is the same way I (and probably others) do as well.  Your perceptions will always be limited, but you can change that perception at will, if you so choose.

Though you don't explicitly say it, it sounds like you think we're heading towards "You're in prison.  Give up."  But that's really not where we're going, I think.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Rat, what I find interesting is that the way you see the BIP is the same way I (and probably others) do as well.  Your perceptions will always be limited, but you can change that perception at will, if you so choose.

Yeah, I don't think I'm alone in that view.

Though you don't explicitly say it, it sounds like you think we're heading towards "You're in prison.  Give up."  But that's really not where we're going, I think.

I don't think that's quite what I meant, I don't think anyone here is advocating giving up. Just a difference in what some of us may see on the other side of the bars, more bars or freedom? I think it also depends on what we consider the BiP to represent. Is it the human condition of ''reality tunnels" which we're all stuck with, or is it only the basic human condition which doesn't realize that 'reality tunnels'... Once you start playing with perceptions, I think you escape... but maybe I'm too damned optimistic

[LMNO]

Well, I guess it depends on what you call "freedom" in this sense.

When taking the Chaos = order+disorder metaphor into account, I'm not sure that [freedom as total lack of constraint] from the BIP is really that beneficial, or even useful.

As yet another tortured metaphor, if we applied [freedom as total lack of constraint] to writing, then frwpeiqw;ceiw02ir30cnasdacow3!

Moving through this universe demands imposing limitations and making judgements about things.  That's your prison.  But that doesn't mean you always have to make the same limitations and judgements; that's your jailbreak.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Well, I guess it depends on what you call "freedom" in this sense.

When taking the Chaos = order+disorder metaphor into account, I'm not sure that [freedom as total lack of constraint] from the BIP is really that beneficial, or even useful.

As yet another tortured metaphor, if we applied [freedom as total lack of constraint] to writing, then frwpeiqw;ceiw02ir30cnasdacow3!

Moving through this universe demands imposing limitations and making judgements about things.  That's your prison.  But that doesn't mean you always have to make the same limitations and judgements; that's your jailbreak.

I guess thats the point we disagree on... I perceive that the Prison is the trap of thinking that your view of reality is THE view of reality. Once you're free of the Curse of Greyface, once you've begun using neuro-plasticity to manipulate your perceptions, I think you've escaped to something else. Even if my new reality tunnel (or tunnels) have some limitations, I can play with each of them "ordering and disordering". That I think is being free of the BiP.

Sure we still have to make decisions and impose limits to the data we take in at any given point in time., but if the limits are self-imposed, if we accept that the judgments are tentative perhaps even arbitrary... are we really imprisoned?

[LMNO]

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[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

secdn3o8k3 ca389, 2nmsd;r as;elmvc wemc0eime3 cwe vgapq,r s[aelfc 8 an 3onac wecz08n asciawe i3 0ca78amac ia0adkw33 jaskna3w-acm@

What jail exists where I can bend the bars,
break them,
fake them,
Or make them anew?

What jail exists where I can choose my view,
my doors,
my bunk
and my cell mates too?

If the Black Iron Prison is putty in my hands,
what sort of prison could it have been?
What sort of inmates get to tear it apart
and then get to build it again?

Am I imprisoned if I choose to sleep
in a cell for a night or so?
Or if no guard stops me from leaving my pen
when I should decide to go?

Where is the prison that takes volunteers
to play in a cell block awhile?
Where is the prison where nobody fears
to say goodbye and walk away with a smile?

IS prison the word to describe self-control,
self-imposed rules or orderly games?
Through Discordian eyes,
both foolish and wise
aren't Order and Disorder the same?

[LMNO]

Sorry, I'm not much of a poet.


Rat, I suppose it comes down to the question of what keeps you in check; what keeps you humble.

If I read you right, you use RAW's "Cosmic Schmuck": that even the most aware person can fall into the perspective trap.  Some around here use the "Monkey Mind" approach, that, when all is said and done, the domesticated primate will often act like... well... a domesticated primate.  In I3!, George Dorn called it the Robot, Hagbard called it the Governor, etc.

I suppose, in this manner, the fact that I say that you can never escape the BIP is my way of keeping tabs on myself, and why "jailbreak" is an ongoing process, and not a one-time thing.  Every time I break out and change my filters [reconstruction; aftermath] – every time I see the bars in my cell, and move beyond them – every time I think for myself, and not my preconceptions – it can be taken as a given that I will once again find myself in a cell of my own devising.

So, I suppose it all depends on the metaphor you decide on using.  There's no reason to argue aesthetics in a case like this, but there is a way to offer understanding.

[AFK]

Okay, here's how I think of it.  You've got Reality.  You've got an individual human's perception of reality.  Because of our physiological and biological limitations (part of the bars of the BIP) we can't possibly comprehend or observe all of Reality.  

So let's just imagine that Reality is a circle for a minute.  To continue the prison metaphor, this is the ultimate outer reaches of the prison, if you will.  We can't get beyond Reality, even if we could perceive its edges.  

Within this circle is another amorphous shape.  It represents a combination of our actual and perceived limitations, as related to biology, physiology, attitudes, belief systems, etc.  

For some this shape maybe a well-defined, solid-lined square.  They don't even entertain the idea that there is more of Reality beyond their square.  For others, it may be a dotted line, others haven't found the boundaries and continue to explore their reality.  

So, the way I see it, a sort of freedom would be the willingness to accept that one is limited in what they can perceive and looks to expand the boundaries, or to work along the edges to see where those boundaries actually go.  A lack of freedom would be the man in the box, refusing to look beyond it.  But then again, that interpretation is based on the observer.  He would say he is free while the outside observer does not.