The Pirate's Dilemma: notes

[Cain]

Truth be told, I wouldn't really mind going back to the mid-80's DIY punk/hardcore mode.  Local bands, locals scenes, record econo, independent labels, tour, scratch out a living being supported by a scene that's willing to help artists directly.

To this day, if I go see a small touring band that's even maginally interesting, I'll buy some merch to get them fed or get to the next city.

Forseeable problem:  "Local scene" thinking doesn't consider global internet implications.

I think that is what Matt Mason was trying to get at as well.  A sort of high-tech modern punk DIY scene.

Wasn't a main problem for many of those bands simply getting known?  In a way, the internet could help with that.  If a scene of like-minded people did develop around such ideas, bands could be more easily recognized by using free tracks to get themselves known, perhaps using pay-per-view feeds for live gigs, DIY merchandising (ie companies like cafepress, only not as nannying in content etc), as well as making money from doing live shows, charging fees for entry and buying CDs they burned themselves.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Truth be told, I wouldn't really mind going back to the mid-80's DIY punk/hardcore mode.  Local bands, locals scenes, record econo, independent labels, tour, scratch out a living being supported by a scene that's willing to help artists directly.

To this day, if I go see a small touring band that's even maginally interesting, I'll buy some merch to get them fed or get to the next city.

Forseeable problem:  "Local scene" thinking doesn't consider global internet implications.

Can you go a bit further with that idea? I'd like to better understand what implications you're seeing as problematic.

[LMNO]

In a way, the 80s DIY scene was about human contact and community.  There were only 5 freaks in town that listened to the Stooges, so you formed a band, and then you went out looking for the other freaks in other towns.  You connected through the physical act of playing (and, when hardcore broke, the physical act of listening, as well), and of meeting people, sharing their space, their passion. 

You knew you wouldn't be on the radio.  The only way someone was gonna hear your stuff was to go directly to them, and play for them, and sell them your 45 EP for three bucks to get enough gas to get to the next town.  You could read about a band in Trouser Press or in MRR, but you needed the first-person experience to keep the scene alive.

And this is where the intertruck throws everything out of whack again.  If the point is all about the music, and the music is now easily available to everyone, for free, you don't need that IRL community. 

You don't need to crash on some dude's floor to get to the next town to spread your music at the next show.

You don't need to play a show to give someone your music.

You don't need to pay a cover charge to hear music you've never experienced before.

You don't need to send a $7.00 money order to Amphetamine Reptile records to get that obscure Scratch Acid LP.

You just have to go onto your computer, download it, type "Thanks, dude! You rock!" on their myspace page, and go back to bed.

[AFK]

In a way, the 80s DIY scene was about human contact and community.  There were only 5 freaks in town that listened to the Stooges, so you formed a band, and then you went out looking for the other freaks in other towns.  You connected through the physical act of playing (and, when hardcore broke, the physical act of listening, as well), and of meeting people, sharing their space, their passion. 

You knew you wouldn't be on the radio.  The only way someone was gonna hear your stuff was to go directly to them, and play for them, and sell them your 45 EP for three bucks to get enough gas to get to the next town.  You could read about a band in Trouser Press or in MRR, but you needed the first-person experience to keep the scene alive.

And this is where the intertruck throws everything out of whack again.  If the point is all about the music, and the music is now easily available to everyone, for free, you don't need that IRL community. 

You don't need to crash on some dude's floor to get to the next town to spread your music at the next show.

You don't need to play a show to give someone your music.

You don't need to pay a cover charge to hear music you've never experienced before.

You don't need to send a $7.00 money order to Amphetamine Reptile records to get that obscure Scratch Acid LP.

You just have to go onto your computer, download it, type "Thanks, dude! You rock!" on their myspace page, and go back to bed.

Yep.  I personally find music that comes out of that kind of scene just seems to have more "soul" to it, for lack of a better word.  I think the Seattle scene was helped by the fact that all of those bands hung out with each other.  In some instances they actually had side bands with members of the original bands (Temple of the Dog, Mad Season, etc.)  And then how the "Seattle Scene" hit was really through a lot of word of mouth and people going to shows in shitty clubs.  "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was out for quite a while before it actually hit.  It was that grass-roots groundswell that propelled it.  I don't see an internet scene endearing the same kind of reaction.  I could be wrong, but I just don't feel it. 

[Cain]

You may not need that community...but people may still want it.  I know I'd love to have a decent punk scene in my area, and would support bands in that scene as much as my means allowed (as an aside, South Wales does have an excellent stoner rock scene, I am informed).

Anyway, my point is while that transglobal interaction and empheral communities built on the world wide web may help satiate that need to some degree, and help in networking, learning etc...I still think that, at the end of the day, people want to be involved in something close to them and at a local level.  And while there may not be so much of a formal method of support (pay me for my LP and help me continue making music), an informal system of dedicated fans could still make it work.

[LMNO]

You may not need that community...but people may still want it.  I know I'd love to have a decent punk scene in my area, and would support bands in that scene as much as my means allowed (as an aside, South Wales does have an excellent stoner rock scene, I am informed).

Anyway, my point is while that transglobal interaction and empheral communities built on the world wide web may help satiate that need to some degree, and help in networking, learning etc...I still think that, at the end of the day, people want to be involved in something close to them and at a local level.  And while there may not be so much of a formal method of support (pay me for my LP and help me continue making music), an informal system of dedicated fans could still make it work.

I agree.

I'm not trashing the FreeInfo model.  It's here; let's deal with it.

I was just expanding on how my experience of the DIY scene seems to run counter to FreeInfo.

However, that isn't saying it can't work a different way.  We just gotta look agressively into the future, instead of mapping it onto the past.

[Cain]

Surely the best approach would be a black swan method?  Many different bands try as many different things as possible, with the tools available and minimum legal interference, and we see which ones tend to turn out best?

Do we have any reporters or academics tracking new business models for bands?

[LMNO]

Not that I know of.

So: There are several musicians on this board.  Perhaps I will start a thread to brainstorm what can be done.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I'd say the first step is figuring out what your product will be and then how you will sell that product.

Possibilities:

Sell originals via a one time fee to online media outlets that have a model for distributing cheap copies (an Indie iTunes).
Sell access to the band via a community website.
Sell services in the traditional 'Patron' model.
Sell an image.

Obviously, depending on your philosophy and what you seek to gain from your musical career, some options may be possible and some may not.

However, let's say I hook up with the Indie scene in Columbus, Cleveland, Dayton, Cincinnati, Akron and Canton. Let's be generous and make the claim that there are 5 bands in the three big cities worth including and 2 in each of the smaller cities, so we're looking at 19 bands. We create a single online network "singfreeordie.com" which hosts a community of indie fans in Ohio.

Now we have a big 'local scene', we have networking so you can easily find places to crash or park the van for a couple hours sleep... and you have a way for people to know who you are before you show up at the crappy little bar in Sandusky... maybe they'll brave the strange smells from the parking lot, if they like your music and have chatted with you online. Cross promotional concerts or jam sessions... potentially impromptu ones (Everyone who is a member of the site gets an RSS feed anytime one of the groups decides to hold a public jam session, maybe just hours in advance...).

You can top that off with vlogs, a close up of the lead singer, bleary eyed and yawning yammering on about this problem with the venue and that the guy whose floor he's crashing on forgot to mention that he had cats... or a 20 minute rant by the lead guitarist on exactly how you're supposed to switch from an A7m chord to a C#... maybe complete with some fingering on cam (not that kind of fingering you sick fucks).

[AFK]

I don't know why, and I can't put my finger on it.   But it just seems so, sterile. 

[LMNO]

I don't know why, and I can't put my finger on it.   But it just seems so, sterile. 

Not enough sleeping on cigarette butts.

[AFK]

I don't know why, and I can't put my finger on it.   But it just seems so, sterile. 

Not enough sleeping on cigarette butts.

Yep and needs moar empty Rolling Rock bottles. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't know why, and I can't put my finger on it.   But it just seems so, sterile. 

Not enough sleeping on cigarette butts.

Yep and needs moar empty Rolling Rock bottles. 

But you could have both... people would pay to watch you complain about sleeping on Rolling Rock bottle and cigarette butts....

[LMNO]

Who's complaining?

[AFK]

Word.  You just can't beat the experience of playing in a total dive.  There's just something very visceral about it.  Man I miss those days.