Do you believe in a soul?

[Manta Obscura]

The argument that science and art can't mix is bullshit.

Agreed, look at what they did with the Mandelbrot sets but, as a generalisation, it holds true.

I wouldn't have replied to this thread if it wasn't for one statement, something about energy turning into nothing.

Once you go down that path you've reached science, and I am well within my liability to pounce.

I visualize this as a siren next to your computer
which goes off when someone makes a statement that is not scientifically sound
and you cannot turn it off until you've said something condescendly pedagogical

More like a siren goes off in my head.

I just had a mental picture of a scientific siren sitting on the rocks of Science, and singing to sailors on the Sea of Ignorance until their boats of retardedness crashed and sank against the shore.

Sweet merciful damn, I need to sleep.

[Revenant]

First off, Cainad, thank you for actually pointing out my contradiction in my original post.  Until you did so, I hadn't even noticed them.  It was indeed very poor wording on my part and my brain was working faster than my hands.

I have never said we should stop thinking along a path, on the contrary, I have stated we should continue to question everything, even what we believe as "facts".  Even things such as gravity has been redefined throughout the ages as our understanding expands and we learn new ways of measuring and calculating.  To accept something an immutable law is to never question its validity despite what new information we learn.  I will never agree to that. As for the whole zombie thing, it was obviously a failed attempt at some humor in a very delicate situation.

Second, you mean to yell me I lost 3 hours of time last night, because you choose to attack my statement instead of asking me to clarify the blatant contradictions in my text.  Part of me wants to scream, but it is being overridden by what logic I have this early in my morning that I should have read through my post a couple more times to make sure my statement was being expressed accurately.  Also, I have never stated I hated science or scientist.  I do, however, have strong issues with people who tell me that what I think is different from what they think and therefore wrong.  Did you even for once think to set your box aside and possibly look at it from a different perspective?  Agree with me or don't, honestly, I don't care, but at least consider the possibility before you sticking your fingers in your ears and scream, "It's not science, it's not science!!!"

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's the exact same kind of thinking that leads to all that "quantum" bullshit out there.

It makes me sad that frootloops have co-opted the term "quantum" and reduced the perception of a valid line of scientific study to a fucking new-age cliche.

[Kai]

First off, Cainad, thank you for actually pointing out my contradiction in my original post.  Until you did so, I hadn't even noticed them.  It was indeed very poor wording on my part and my brain was working faster than my hands.

I have never said we should stop thinking along a path, on the contrary, I have stated we should continue to question everything, even what we believe as "facts".  Even things such as gravity has been redefined throughout the ages as our understanding expands and we learn new ways of measuring and calculating.  To accept something an immutable law is to never question its validity despite what new information we learn.  I will never agree to that. As for the whole zombie thing, it was obviously a failed attempt at some humor in a very delicate situation.

Second, you mean to yell me I lost 3 hours of time last night, because you choose to attack my statement instead of asking me to clarify the blatant contradictions in my text.  Part of me wants to scream, but it is being overridden by what logic I have this early in my morning that I should have read through my post a couple more times to make sure my statement was being expressed accurately.  Also, I have never stated I hated science or scientist.  I do, however, have strong issues with people who tell me that what I think is different from what they think and therefore wrong.  Did you even for once think to set your box aside and possibly look at it from a different perspective?  Agree with me or don't, honestly, I don't care, but at least consider the possibility before you sticking your fingers in your ears and scream, "It's not science, it's not science!!!"

No.

[Manta Obscura]

First off, Cainad, thank you for actually pointing out my contradiction in my original post.  Until you did so, I hadn't even noticed them.  It was indeed very poor wording on my part and my brain was working faster than my hands.

I have never said we should stop thinking along a path, on the contrary, I have stated we should continue to question everything, even what we believe as "facts".  Even things such as gravity has been redefined throughout the ages as our understanding expands and we learn new ways of measuring and calculating.  To accept something an immutable law is to never question its validity despite what new information we learn.  I will never agree to that. As for the whole zombie thing, it was obviously a failed attempt at some humor in a very delicate situation.

Second, you mean to yell me I lost 3 hours of time last night, because you choose to attack my statement instead of asking me to clarify the blatant contradictions in my text.  Part of me wants to scream, but it is being overridden by what logic I have this early in my morning that I should have read through my post a couple more times to make sure my statement was being expressed accurately.  Also, I have never stated I hated science or scientist.  I do, however, have strong issues with people who tell me that what I think is different from what they think and therefore wrong.  Did you even for once think to set your box aside and possibly look at it from a different perspective?  Agree with me or don't, honestly, I don't care, but at least consider the possibility before you sticking your fingers in your ears and scream, "It's not science, it's not science!!!"

Off-topic post to any scientifically-minded people on here:

Regarding gravity, does anyone know why objects gravitate towards each other, or do we just know, thus far, that they do so for an as-yet-undefined reason? I'm being a little vague (not to mention hijacking the thread), so I'll clarify:

For instance, we now know that cold is not caused by "cold molecules," and have identified the source of the phenomenon called "cold." Has there been any such development with gravitation, as in pinpointing what aspect of matter causes it to happen?

Just curious.

[Kai]

First off, Cainad, thank you for actually pointing out my contradiction in my original post.  Until you did so, I hadn't even noticed them.  It was indeed very poor wording on my part and my brain was working faster than my hands.

I have never said we should stop thinking along a path, on the contrary, I have stated we should continue to question everything, even what we believe as "facts".  Even things such as gravity has been redefined throughout the ages as our understanding expands and we learn new ways of measuring and calculating.  To accept something an immutable law is to never question its validity despite what new information we learn.  I will never agree to that. As for the whole zombie thing, it was obviously a failed attempt at some humor in a very delicate situation.

Second, you mean to yell me I lost 3 hours of time last night, because you choose to attack my statement instead of asking me to clarify the blatant contradictions in my text.  Part of me wants to scream, but it is being overridden by what logic I have this early in my morning that I should have read through my post a couple more times to make sure my statement was being expressed accurately.  Also, I have never stated I hated science or scientist.  I do, however, have strong issues with people who tell me that what I think is different from what they think and therefore wrong.  Did you even for once think to set your box aside and possibly look at it from a different perspective?  Agree with me or don't, honestly, I don't care, but at least consider the possibility before you sticking your fingers in your ears and scream, "It's not science, it's not science!!!"

Off-topic post to any scientifically-minded people on here:

Regarding gravity, does anyone know why objects gravitate towards each other, or do we just know, thus far, that they do so for an as-yet-undefined reason? I'm being a little vague (not to mention hijacking the thread), so I'll clarify:

For instance, we now know that cold is not caused by "cold molecules," and have identified the source of the phenomenon called "cold." Has there been any such development with gravitation, as in pinpointing what aspect of matter causes it to happen?

Just curious.

Gravity, I think, is postulated to be the affect mass has on space-time.

[Idem]

So which is more arrogant: making ultimately tentative claims about the physical nature of reality based on empirical experiments and observation (often times, countless amounts of both), thus creating working theories that can be used to explain real phenomena? Or dismissing all that as "just a theory" and claiming that armchair intellectualism is equally likely to be true, because "everything is a possibility," resulting in theories that explain nothing and terminate further inquiry rather than inviting it?

THIS.

[Vene]

Kai, this is for you.


Nothing like a dumb as shit fuckwit coming in here and blatantly ignoring some of the best established laws around.  You do NOT fucking break the fucking laws of thermodynamics.  Although, I wonder if I could sell FP a perpetual motion machine.  He seems dumb enough to believe it might actually work.

[Idem]

I have never said we should stop thinking along a path, on the contrary, I have stated we should continue to question everything, even what we believe as "facts".  Even things such as gravity has been redefined throughout the ages as our understanding expands and we learn new ways of measuring and calculating.  To accept something an immutable law is to never question its validity despite what new information we learn.  I will never agree to that.

Neither will most scientists.

If information is found contradictory to a "fundamental law", the law will have to be thrown out and/or replaced.

Nothing is "proved" in science, but it's the closest we can come to it.

[Vene]

I have never said we should stop thinking along a path, on the contrary, I have stated we should continue to question everything, even what we believe as "facts".  Even things such as gravity has been redefined throughout the ages as our understanding expands and we learn new ways of measuring and calculating.  To accept something an immutable law is to never question its validity despite what new information we learn.  I will never agree to that.

Neither will most scientists.

If information is found contradictory to a "fundamental law", the law will have to be thrown out and/or replaced.

Nothing is "proved" in science, but it's the closest we can come to it.

This is exactly why we have tools like confidence intervals instead of absolute fact.  Also, notice how Kai asked for EVIDENCE that the law of conservation of energy could be broken.  Considering how long that law has been around without any problems being found in it, I doubt that an internet fuckwit is going to disprove it any time soon.

[Cramulus]

Nothing like a dumb as shit fuckwit coming in here and blatantly blah blah blah

oh my god I know - the guy doesn't have a science degree

that makes him less than you

[Vene]

Nothing like a dumb as shit fuckwit coming in here and blatantly blah blah blah

oh my god I know - the guy doesn't have a science degree

that makes him less than you

I don't have one either.  I try to make that clear.  Sure, I'm working on one, but I don't have it yet.  I'm not asking anybody here to be a scientist, I'm asking for people to fucking understand what something is before making fucking stupid statements.

[Kai]

Nothing like a dumb as shit fuckwit coming in here and blatantly blah blah blah

oh my god I know - the guy doesn't have a science degree

that makes him less knowledgeable on scientific subjects  than you

fixed, for reductio ad absurdum.

[Kai]

Kai, this is for you.
http://www.btwebworld.com/tradingpost/motorcycle.jpg

Nothing like a dumb as shit fuckwit coming in here and blatantly ignoring some of the best established laws around.  You do NOT fucking break the fucking laws of thermodynamics.  Although, I wonder if I could sell FP a perpetual motion machine.  He seems dumb enough to believe it might actually work.

Thanks. I don't really think he is dumb as shit, btw, I just think he has brain addled himself so far from reality that hes encroaching on insanity.

I don't have time to explain basic physics or biology to the insane either.

[Cainad (dec.)]

First off, Cainad, thank you for actually pointing out my contradiction in my original post.  Until you did so, I hadn't even noticed them.  It was indeed very poor wording on my part and my brain was working faster than my hands.

I have never said we should stop thinking along a path, on the contrary, I have stated we should continue to question everything, even what we believe as "facts".  Even things such as gravity has been redefined throughout the ages as our understanding expands and we learn new ways of measuring and calculating.  To accept something an immutable law is to never question its validity despite what new information we learn.  I will never agree to that. As for the whole zombie thing, it was obviously a failed attempt at some humor in a very delicate situation.

Second, you mean to yell me I lost 3 hours of time last night, because you choose to attack my statement instead of asking me to clarify the blatant contradictions in my text.  Part of me wants to scream, but it is being overridden by what logic I have this early in my morning that I should have read through my post a couple more times to make sure my statement was being expressed accurately.  Also, I have never stated I hated science or scientist.  I do, however, have strong issues with people who tell me that what I think is different from what they think and therefore wrong.  Did you even for once think to set your box aside and possibly look at it from a different perspective?  Agree with me or don't, honestly, I don't care, but at least consider the possibility before you sticking your fingers in your ears and scream, "It's not science, it's not science!!!"

Nope. That's one of the benefits of being a Right Reverend.

But seriously, I chose to attack your post because it seemed based on pseudoscience. I didn't elaborate on the contradiction because I had to go to class.

And of fucking course nothing is an immutable law. Gravity is examined just like any other phenomenon, but to talk about the "energy" of a person's living body persevering as a "soul," based on some claim that people lose 21 grams of mass after death, is more or less equivalent to postulating that we are all being controlled by the psionic powers of a godlike being living in Arizona because someone, somewhere, claims to have produced evidence that telepathy is possible.

It's a hell of a jump. Even if human bodies lose 21 grams after death (and I would have no objections to performing a series of rigorous tests to observe what happens immediately after death), it's pure mental fappery to claim that these 21 grams are soulstuff and therefore a living personality perseveres in some form after death. What evidence is there that it doesn't dissipate into the surrounding environment?

I don't hate wild speculation of this sort, but I have a personal distaste for it and I will strongly support my opinion that it's a waste of time in many cases. If there's one thing human minds are incredibly good at, it's making stuff up to explain phenomena that in turn requires no explanation (see: all mythology ever). I see no value in fabricating new "boxes of perspective" out of whole cloth for anything other than creative or artistic ends. Do it if you want, but don't expect me to see it as anything other than making shit up.

H.P. Lovecraft imagined creatures in his stories that could fly through the medium of "aether," in keeping with the science of the times. That doesn't mean he actually believed such creatures existed or tried to push the idea as anything other than a imaginative story.