Do you believe in a soul?

[Revenant]

How about that if we can't measure it, we have NO reason to think it exists.  Especially when the idea came from superstitious apes.
If we have no reason to think things exist without measurements, then why did we even create the measurements?

You mean if it's misused.  Just like any tool Occam's Razor can be misapplied, but that doesn't mean it's not useful.  I can use a hammer to smash somebody's skull in, but that doesn't mean it's not a tool for construction.
A hammer which is essentially a type of club was used was a tool of destruction long before being used as a tool of construction. Either way, it is merely a tool and not a means to justify its use.

What makes your belief solid?  I don't think you've ever provided any reasoning for it.  I can provide reasoning for why I don't think there is a soul.  Mostly that thought processes can be explained using chemistry and invoking the supernatural doesn't actually add anything to the explanation.
My belief is solid because I continue to hold my belief despite people telling I am a fool or an idiot or insane.  It is solid as it has yet to ever fail me.  Even in times of torment and pain, it has remained steadfast and resolute.  If I told you what I have experienced and the things I have seen and encountered you would still refuse to accept such a belief until it was experienced first hand.  So stop asking for proof.  There is a reason it is called belief.

Then follow it and show us the data.
Refer to previous statement

Burden of proof asswipe.  Logically we don't assume that something exists until it is evidence (or measured).
Does the color red cease to exist simply because there are people blind to it?

When is your model useful?  What has your model accomplished?  There's a lot of bullshit out there and you seem to be spouting it.

When is my model useful?  Really, you cannot see the possible use of using the scientific to help explain the spiritual?  Hmmm....what could possibility be a benefit to having a unified answer to some of the most heated question on the face of this planet?  If you can't see the potential of using a structured scientific platform to bring order to the chaos which is religion than by all means, ignore it.

[Vene]

What the hell just happened?  You are using the exact same reasoning of creationists and fundies.  I have no desire to deal with the fundamentalist attitude anymore.  Well, that's a lie, I still am compelled to point out your hypocrisy.

This seems to be the real issue with your argument.  You feel because I choose not to uphold these laws as fact that I hold no faith in them.  This is clearly not the case. I place faith in these as much as I place faith in my chair to not break when I sit in it.  However, I do not hold blind faith is said things.  This is the same for my beliefs and my chair.  I view them as having the possibility to fail me.  You see I regularly kick my foundations to make sure they are still solid.

My belief is solid because I continue to hold my belief despite people telling I am a fool or an idiot or insane.  It is solid as it has yet to ever fail me.  Even in times of torment and pain, it has remained steadfast and resolute.  If I told you what I have experienced and the things I have seen and encountered you would still refuse to accept such a belief until it was experienced first hand.  So stop asking for proof.  There is a reason it is called belief.

[Revenant]

What the hell just happened?  You are using the exact same reasoning of creationists and fundies.  I have no desire to deal with the fundamentalist attitude anymore.  Well, that's a lie, I still am compelled to point out your hypocrisy.

This seems to be the real issue with your argument.  You feel because I choose not to uphold these laws as fact that I hold no faith in them.  This is clearly not the case. I place faith in these as much as I place faith in my chair to not break when I sit in it.  However, I do not hold blind faith is said things.  This is the same for my beliefs and my chair.  I view them as having the possibility to fail me.  You see I regularly kick my foundations to make sure they are still solid.

My belief is solid because I continue to hold my belief despite people telling I am a fool or an idiot or insane.  It is solid as it has yet to ever fail me.  Even in times of torment and pain, it has remained steadfast and resolute.  If I told you what I have experienced and the things I have seen and encountered you would still refuse to accept such a belief until it was experienced first hand.  So stop asking for proof.  There is a reason it is called belief.

What happened is you made an error in judgment and labeled me a fundie.  There is nothing fundamental about what I believe.  Also if you read the statement prior to the one you highlighted, you will see I understand the futility of trying to tell you these things.  You require proof which I cannot simply hand you through the internet, and even if I could, you would not accept such proof.  You would need to experience it for yourself.  There is nothing hypocritical about my statement. 

[Vene]

You require proof which I cannot simply hand you through the internet, and even if I could, you would not accept such proof.  You would need to experience it for yourself.  There is nothing hypocritical about my statement. 

Try me fucker.  You are repeating fundie's arguments word for motherfucking word with I ask for evidence.

(Yep, I definitely lied.  I don't know how to stop.)

[Revenant]

You require proof which I cannot simply hand you through the internet, and even if I could, you would not accept such proof.  You would need to experience it for yourself.  There is nothing hypocritical about my statement. 

Try me fucker.  You are repeating fundie's arguments word for motherfucking word with I ask for evidence.

(Yep, I definitely lied.  I don't know how to stop.)

You want my life story?

[Cainad (dec.)]

You require proof which I cannot simply hand you through the internet, and even if I could, you would not accept such proof.  You would need to experience it for yourself.  There is nothing hypocritical about my statement. 

Try me fucker.  You are repeating fundie's arguments word for motherfucking word with I ask for evidence.

(Yep, I definitely lied.  I don't know how to stop.)

You want my life story?

It's nothing to do with you being a fundie, which you obviously aren't. It's to do with you using the rhetoric that fundies have become very adept at slinging.

[wade]

I can't give you evidence but I can point you in the direction of a PROCEDURE, similar to one you would find in any type of scientific experiemnt.

the book is called LIBER ABA.  have at it Mr. rationals.

[wade]

 i believe my soul is hated by many and loved by few.

[Revenant]

You require proof which I cannot simply hand you through the internet, and even if I could, you would not accept such proof.  You would need to experience it for yourself.  There is nothing hypocritical about my statement. 

Try me fucker.  You are repeating fundie's arguments word for motherfucking word with I ask for evidence.

(Yep, I definitely lied.  I don't know how to stop.)

You want my life story?

It's nothing to do with you being a fundie, which you obviously aren't. It's to do with you using the rhetoric that fundies have become very adept at slinging.

Ah, I see.  My stating that I understand no matter what I show it will be rebuked is a fundie aspect.  I try to avoid them as much as I can.  They tend to give me more crap than any scientist.  Personally, I'll tell you my story if you really want to hear it, but if all that will come of it is ridicule then it is really a waste of my time and yours.

[Vene]

Personally, I'll tell you my story if you really want to hear it, but if all that will come of it is ridicule then it is really a waste of my time and yours.

I'll promise to listen with an open mind.  I don't promise I won't ridicule it if I think it's stupid.

[Telarus]

How about that if we can't measure it, we have NO reason to think it exists.  Especially when the idea came from superstitious apes.
If we have no reason to think things exist without measurements, then why did we even create the measurements?

You mean if it's misused.  Just like any tool Occam's Razor can be misapplied, but that doesn't mean it's not useful.  I can use a hammer to smash somebody's skull in, but that doesn't mean it's not a tool for construction.
A hammer which is essentially a type of club was used was a tool of destruction long before being used as a tool of construction. Either way, it is merely a tool and not a means to justify its use.

What makes your belief solid?  I don't think you've ever provided any reasoning for it.  I can provide reasoning for why I don't think there is a soul.  Mostly that thought processes can be explained using chemistry and invoking the supernatural doesn't actually add anything to the explanation.
My belief is solid because I continue to hold my belief despite people telling I am a fool or an idiot or insane.  It is solid as it has yet to ever fail me.  Even in times of torment and pain, it has remained steadfast and resolute.  If I told you what I have experienced and the things I have seen and encountered you would still refuse to accept such a belief until it was experienced first hand.  So stop asking for proof.  There is a reason it is called belief.

Then follow it and show us the data.
Refer to previous statement

Burden of proof asswipe.  Logically we don't assume that something exists until it is evidence (or measured).
Does the color red cease to exist simply because there are people blind to it?

When is your model useful?  What has your model accomplished?  There's a lot of bullshit out there and you seem to be spouting it.

When is my model useful?  Really, you cannot see the possible use of using the scientific to help explain the spiritual?  Hmmm....what could possibility be a benefit to having a unified answer to some of the most heated question on the face of this planet?  If you can't see the potential of using a structured scientific platform to bring order to the chaos which is religion than by all means, ignore it.

The problem isn't if your model is or is not useful.

The fact is that as currently expressed by you, your model is INCOHERENT.

On the true/false/meaningless map, all of the dots are clustered around MEANINGLESS, but you think you can get to 'truth' by jumping from dot to dot.

Thus, your clinging to the model (or appearing to), without examining why your model is INCOHERENT, is the definition of Fundamentalism used upthread.

(Not that the beliefs are 'fundamental' to your worldview, but that YOU CANNOT CRITICALLY EXAMINE THEM.)

We're not ridiculing your experiences or your model of them, simply commenting on how well you can communicate them.

Namaste'

[Revenant]

Personally, I'll tell you my story if you really want to hear it, but if all that will come of it is ridicule then it is really a waste of my time and yours.

I'll promise to listen with an open mind.  I don't promise I won't ridicule it if I think it's stupid.

Very well.

It will take me a moment to write it and get the semantics in line.

[Golden Applesauce]

Annoying Spider Guy:

Functionally, what's the difference between something that cannot be observed (directly or indirectly) and something that doesn't exist?

To clarify, when I say "cannot be observed" I mean that it would be impossible for equipment to exist that could observe such a thing, or to observe any effects of such a thing.  I'm counting the H. Sapiens' obervational and cognitive organs as equipment for this purpose.

However, I do not hold blind faith is said things.  This is the same for my beliefs and my chair.  I view them as having the possibility to fail me.  You see I regularly kick my foundations to make sure they are still solid.

We kick foundations too.  Explain to us how you kick your foundation to check for solidity - I suspect you missed a few weak spots on your kicking spree, and your entire building is rotten because of it.  If we see that your kicking method is solid, we'll believe that your foundations are solid; otherwise we're forced to assume that you went and believed everything you read labeled "Science Fiction and Fantasy."

For that matter, could you repeat your assertion about the existence of something referred to as a 'soul'?  I think I misunderstood you the first time.  For clarity, include working definitions of all relevant terms.

[Golden Applesauce]

Personally, I'll tell you my story if you really want to hear it, but if all that will come of it is ridicule then it is really a waste of my time and yours.

I'll promise to listen with an open mind.  I don't promise I won't ridicule it if I think it's stupid.

Very well.

It will take me a moment to write it and get the semantics in line.

I also am interested.

[bones]

what's the point of a shoe if you dont have a soul?


oh sorry, i thought this was the one sentence meme bomb thread