The Sacred Chao Te Ching

[LMNO]

Cram, I'm trying to think down the road a bit here....

I'm ok with us talking about the CTC, and tweaking a few things after discussion, but I'm not ok with some 23ae spag charging through the thing and adding shit like "purple rocket octopus!" every third line because it's not "Discordian Enough".


What I guess I'm saying is, can we make the CTC wiki only semi-public, so we still have some sort of handle on the content?

[LMNO]

Also,

Freedom exists through Eris Discordia.
What we call Eris Discordia is Chaos,
elusive and intangible.
Elusive and intangible, yet within it is Order.
Intangible and elusive, yet within it is
Disorder.
Random and uncalculating, yet with in it is
Life.

Life is real, and has the power of Creation.
From the moment we are born,
We create the patterns of Illusion,
From which we ever after try and free
ourselves.
How do I know of these Illusions?
By observing Chaos.

Or another interp

The wise spag keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
that is what gives him his shtick.

The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.

The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his shtick?
'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker.

Even before time & space were,
The Chao was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.

These are two interpretations of the same chaper.  How would you suggest we combine them?

[Cramulus]

Cram, I'm trying to think down the road a bit here....

I'm ok with us talking about the CTC, and tweaking a few things after discussion, but I'm not ok with some 23ae spag charging through the thing and adding shit like "purple rocket octopus!" every third line because it's not "Discordian Enough".

I hear what you're saying
I also don't see how that's a threat to our book

I don't think we've "done it 100% right" right off the bat. We're pretty good. Great in some places. Though some moron might "jazz up" his version of the CTC with garbage, there's also a chance that a "Wise Spag" will add something great to it. We also tend to have better distribution mechanisms than random LOLPINEALn00bs so if someone comes up with a stupid version ours will probably get more playtime in memeosphere.

The Share-Alike clause makes this work similar to the BIP. Upon a first reading, some people will likely come to the forum and say "I don't think you did it right," and we can say, "Cool, give it a try for yourself."

And if we don't like what they suggest, we don't have to use it.

What I guess I'm saying is, can we make the CTC wiki only semi-public, so we still have some sort of handle on the content?

We could Copyright it. And then give permission to edit on a case-by-case basis. But that seems a bit possessive to me.

Odds are, the final copy of this thing is going to exist in two primary distribution points:
1) on the PD server, perhaps hosted in a format similar to the PD and BIP
2) on scribd.com, likely uploaded by me

our community controls both of those points (to some extent). I think we'll have okay luck if we focus on distributing via those two points.  So I'm not terribly worried about someone filling our book with crap and then popularizing their alternate version because they'll have less manpower distributing it.

To be clear, the wiki is only our workspace. It's not intended to be the final hosting spot for the CTC.

[Cramulus]

These are two interpretations of the same chaper.  How would you suggest we combine them?

Normally I'd make a cutup

take the two versions of the same chapter, put them side by side

and go through line by line, choosing lines and phrases which sound like they "work", until you have a composite. Then edit edit edit.

In this case, we've already done a lot of talking about the second version so I think we should go with that.

hey that last stanza:

Code Select Expand

Even before time & space were,
The Chao was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.

What do you guys think of it as:

Even before there were brains to know it,
The Chao was.
It existed before symbols, before language,
to this day it is still beyond our language.
How do I know this is true?
I'm not sure: I don't buy into that model either.

added a little bit of paradox, changed the ending completely.

and since I haven't said it in a few pages, I'm with Honey in that I'm not attached to this, so if you don't like it I promise my feelings won't be hurt. 

[LMNO]

Cram, I'm trying to think down the road a bit here....

I'm ok with us talking about the CTC, and tweaking a few things after discussion, but I'm not ok with some 23ae spag charging through the thing and adding shit like "purple rocket octopus!" every third line because it's not "Discordian Enough".

I hear what you're saying
I also don't see how that's a threat to our book

I don't think we've "done it 100% right" right off the bat. We're pretty good. Great in some places. Though some moron might "jazz up" his version of the CTC with garbage, there's also a chance that a "Wise Spag" will add something great to it. We also tend to have better distribution mechanisms than random LOLPINEALn00bs so if someone comes up with a stupid version ours will probably get more playtime in memeosphere.

The Share-Alike clause makes this work similar to the BIP. Upon a first reading, some people will likely come to the forum and say "I don't think you did it right," and we can say, "Cool, give it a try for yourself."

And if we don't like what they suggest, we don't have to use it.

What I guess I'm saying is, can we make the CTC wiki only semi-public, so we still have some sort of handle on the content?

We could Copyright it. And then give permission to edit on a case-by-case basis. But that seems a bit possessive to me.

Odds are, the final copy of this thing is going to exist in two primary distribution points:
1) on the PD server, perhaps hosted in a format similar to the PD and BIP
2) on scribd.com, likely uploaded by me

our community controls both of those points (to some extent). I think we'll have okay luck if we focus on distributing via those two points.  So I'm not terribly worried about someone filling our book with crap and then popularizing their alternate version because they'll have less manpower distributing it.

To be clear, the wiki is only our workspace. It's not intended to be the final hosting spot for the CTC.

Oh.  Ok.  I'm cool with that.

:moves along:



As far as the "doubles" go, I've noticed that what each is trying to say, for the most part, aren't really talking about the same thing, so the "line by line" method might not work.  How about mixing verses?

What about:

Freedom exists through Eris Discordia.
What we call Eris Discordia is Chaos,
elusive and intangible.
Elusive and intangible, yet within it is Order.
Intangible and elusive, yet within it is
Disorder.
Random and uncalculating, yet with in it is
Life.

The wise spag keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
that is what gives him his [shtick].

The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.

Life is real, and has the power of Creation.
From the moment we are born,
We create the patterns of Illusion,
From which we ever after try and free
ourselves.
How do I know of these Illusions?
By observing Chaos.

The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his [shtick]?
['Cuz he would kill a mother fucker].



NOTE: Brackets indicate phrases or words under construction

[Cramulus]

I like it. Let's strike the first stanza though ("Freedom exists through Eris Discordia...") , it seems a little redundant to me.

[LMNO]

Sounds good.  I'll edit the wiki.

[LMNO]

Next up:

Chapter 11
The Mandlebrot grows in infinite complexity
but it depends on the empty space at the center.
Knowledge is built of facts:
a scaffolding to support ignorance.
The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but the colors between those lines give it life.
You fill your house with awesome stuff
but you live in the unoccupied space.

Therefore take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.

OR

We stick apart & stay baffled,
yet keep coming back
to the very same thing
brought us apart.

Shaped words, unraveled meanings,
interpret, corrupt, adapt or construe,
we knew all along
words don't count.

Storm off on a journey,
resisting the tide,
float back.

Slippery bodies swim the ocean,
while thought waves swim through.

[LMNO]

I suggest:

Shaped words, unraveled meanings,
interpret, corrupt, adapt and construe,
we knew all along;
Words don't count.

Knowledge is built of facts:
a scaffolding to support ignorance.
The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but the colors between those lines give it life.
You fill your house with awesome stuff
but you live in the unoccupied space.

We stick apart & stay baffled,
yet keep coming back
to the very same thing
that brought us apart.

Therefore take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.

[Cramulus]

whoops, you beat me to it! here's my post anyway

I like elements of both versions. Here's an attempt at a marriage. Feel free to pair down.


Edit:

Chapter 11
The Mandlebrot grows in infinite complexity
but it depends on the empty space at the center.
Knowledge is built of facts:
a scaffolding to support ignorance.

The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but crayons give it life.
You fill your house with awesome stuff
but you live in the unoccupied space.

We stick apart & stay baffled,
yet keep coming back
to the very same thing

The lens of the first microscope revealed fractillian ignorance.

Shaped words, unraveled meanings,
interpret, corrupt, adapt or construe,
we knew all along
words don't count.

Storm off on a journey,
resisting the tide,
float back.

take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.

it sounds a little bit long to me


edit to add: one thing I pondered

"You fill your house with awesome stuff"
(the empty space inside a house is an image from the TTC... but we could be talking about anything here. the line also works with "head" and "self")

[LMNO]

"fractillian"?

[LMNO]

Also,

"Storm off on a Journey,
Resisting the tide,
Float back"

Is much more Tao than Chao.  Vote to strike.



[ETA: This whole chapter mirrors the Tao pretty closely.  Maybe we can nudge it further towards Chao?]

[Cramulus]

I support your vote


as for "fractillian"


prior to the first microscope we were unaware of cells, bacteria, viruses, the largely invisible microscopic world. The more we learn, the more we understand how little we know. Thus knowledge is a scaffold for ignorance.


"fractillian" indicates an infinite ignorance

the infinite depth is revealed by further magnification

"Fractillian" also indicates recursiveness... the shape of the thing is reflected in all its parts

The invention of the microscope and the new uncertainty it produced is a microcosm of knowledge in general. The more precise our tools get, the better we know how ignorant we are.

I think there's a lesson there about not buying into the contemporary models, even your own models


take it or leave it?

[LMNO]

I'm pretty sure what you meant, I just wasn't sure if you knew that's still considered a "made up" word.

[LMNO]

Also, Second Stanza, removing the "Tao House" part, expanding on "Coloring Book"

The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but crayons give it life,
not staying constrained inside the lines,
nor reducing the pattern into scribbles.