Nonsense as Salvation

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I felt like writing this up for a while.  I didn't recall anyone going anywhere good with the "NONSENSE AS SALVATION" bit from the PD.  Here, I try.

For the reference of new users:
If anyone's "saved" in our shared model of reality, it's us.  We don't need more nonsense on the forum to be "more saved."  We don't even need to keep much around: nothing's easier to produce "in the field".

If you want to get a point across in the forum, try using the words according to the rules of the language.  "Subversion," after all, is a word.

Thanks for joining, we probably want you around.

[hooplala]

 

[Epimetheus]

  Yeah...whatever.

[Cainad (dec.)]

what

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Sjaantze and I were discussing Dada recently and how there were multiple layers of communication within the Dada 'conversation'. At one level, they were questioning 'What is Art?' from a social/status standpoint. At another level, many of them were expressing a dislike/hatred/disdain of the audience, who Ohh'd and Ahhh'd at their 'Art'. At a third level, they were communicating with their peers about their views of the social status of art than the mental status of their audience.

This seems somewhat similar to the way some Discordians use nonsense. It may be questioning 'What is Religion?' or 'What is Philosophy?' or even 'What is communication on the Internets?' There is often a disdain for the target/victim/mark/audience and finally, the communication with their peers 'See, what I have done to these fools?'.

Dada as a multilayer communication tool is similar to Discordianism as a multilayer communication tool.

HOWEVER, as I think yhnmzw is trying to point out, If you confuse your peer with your audience, then your shooting your communication channel in the foot. If you were to throw Dada at the Dadaists, what would you be communicating? That the status of art is questionable? They know that. That you hate your audience? This seems similar to Discordianism, you can communicate Nonsense, to question religion, belief, etc... but the Discordian is already aware of that, so it isn't communicating anything new. Thus there are two channels left: Disdain for the audience and communication with peers "See How Dumb the Audience Is?" However, as both audience and peer, the Discordian gets both channels... which is probably not a good way to win friends and influence Erisians.

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Basically what Ratatosk said.  I'd been kicking the ideas around for probably a few months, from seeing one new nonsense-poster/Pinealist or another.  I don't remember who, I don't see it mattering.

I posted it for discussion, and because I wasn't sure I could find a better "Hello, Pinealist" thread or Wiki page.

If you confuse your peer with your audience, then your shooting your communication channel in the foot.

I like this phrase.

Thanks, Ratatosk, for that bit on Dada.  I did not know that.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I've actually been trying to find legitimate incarnations of Dada in modern art and the Coincidance pulled me in... Halfway through the discussion with Sjaantze, Time and Eric's "Awesome Show, Good Job" came on. For the first time in awhile I watched it with this Dada stuff in the back of my head... usually I shut it off.

THEN IT DAWNED ON ME. They are Dadaists, they have an audience and the medium and provide the worst possible entertainment they can come up with. You can almost see them shitting down the necks of their viewers who think its awesome. However, once I saw it in that light, it became very funny at a different level than I had been trying to grok it previously. Rather than "funny show", it became "funny kick in the face to the TV viewers".

And thus I was enlightened by that terrible, dumb, annoying show.

Or I was simply connecting pebbles based on the conversation I'd just had.

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I've actually been trying to find legitimate incarnations of Dada in modern art and the Coincidance pulled me in... Halfway through the discussion with Sjaantze, Time and Eric's "Awesome Show, Good Job" came on. For the first time in awhile I watched it with this Dada stuff in the back of my head... usually I shut it off.

THEN IT DAWNED ON ME. They are Dadaists, they have an audience and the medium and provide the worst possible entertainment they can come up with. You can almost see them shitting down the necks of their viewers who think its awesome. However, once I saw it in that light, it became very funny at a different level than I had been trying to grok it previously. Rather than "funny show", it became "funny kick in the face to the TV viewers".

And thus I was enlightened by that terrible, dumb, annoying show.

Or I was simply connecting pebbles based on the conversation I'd just had.

or  , then?
I felt  .

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I've actually been trying to find legitimate incarnations of Dada in modern art and the Coincidance pulled me in... Halfway through the discussion with Sjaantze, Time and Eric's "Awesome Show, Good Job" came on. For the first time in awhile I watched it with this Dada stuff in the back of my head... usually I shut it off.

THEN IT DAWNED ON ME. They are Dadaists, they have an audience and the medium and provide the worst possible entertainment they can come up with. You can almost see them shitting down the necks of their viewers who think its awesome. However, once I saw it in that light, it became very funny at a different level than I had been trying to grok it previously. Rather than "funny show", it became "funny kick in the face to the TV viewers".

And thus I was enlightened by that terrible, dumb, annoying show.

Or I was simply connecting pebbles based on the conversation I'd just had.

or  , then?
I felt  .

First I was then I was then I was then I realized how many of my friends LIKE the show and I was

[LMNO]

http://principiadiscordia.com/book/81.php

Can we all please look at the piece associated with this phrase?

The point of the piece seems not that you should be all Monty Python and shit.


The point as I understand it is that most people are too into ORDER games, without realizing they are games at all.

The piece urges the reader to play DISORDER games to balance it out, and to learn how to play games.

After a person learns that, they are free to play whatever games they choose, because they see how the (An)Eristic Illusions work.

The conclusion being NOT that Nonsense is "more enlightening" than Sense, but that BOTH are necessary for enlightenment.

"As the master of his own games, he plays without fear."


It seems to me a lot (not all) people took the phrase "NONSENSE AS SALVATION" and then ignored the entire point of the piece.

The Chao te Ching, Chapter 41

Some hear about Discordia, and plot against the Machine™.
Some hear about Discordia, and think about it at great length.
Some hear about Discordia, and decide it means they should get high and doodle.
If it weren't for those spags, Discordia wouldn't be as interesting as it is.

Order appears calming and sensible.
Disorder appears unsettling and unstable.
Doubt appears ignorant.
Certainty appears true.
Agression appears confident.
Mirth appears uncaring.
Horror appears powerless.
All these are lies.

Uncertainty reveals itself as a narrow footbridge,
But with its heart in Chaos, the path is clear.




And Chapter 73

Those who embrace Disorder will breed Order.
Those who embrace Order will breed Disorder.
Both of these ways are foolish.
Why would you embrace Illusion,
and deny one half of the Universe?

Wise spags find the patterns,
and invent new game rules to trip up The Machine™.
They change the world,
not through Ideology,
but by finding the Hidden Middle.
They straddle the shifting line between True and False,
and embrace the whole Universe.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I agree with you LMNO, the salvation is by "mastering nonsense as well as you have mastered sense" so that both expose each other as being absurd (models created over top of chaotic reality by us). I think yhnmzw was just using it for the 'salvation' = 'saved' bit there at the beginning.

I'd also argue that Monty Python particularly used nonsense/sense... that is, they worked five days a week in shirt and tie, writing scripts, editing scripts etc like a real job (Sense) and then performed Nonsense to smack the brains of the public (with a fish). John Cleese remarked on the poor state of SNL, because they didn't take the script writing etc seriously. According to him, that lead to mediocre quality and skits that kept going after they should have ended.

The Pythons, I would argue grokked sense and nonsense, SNL casts (especially those in the past decade or more) seem to have a slight grasp on nonsense, but don't have the sense to balance it out....

Or something like that.

[AFK]

I think the concept of "balance" is one that runs throughout the PD.  And I think it is one, as LMNO mentions, is kind of missed by some.  As you say, it isn't the point to rush from one end of the boat to the other, it is to understand that if you only row on one side, you just go around in circles and get nowhere.

Another way to think about it is the discussions we've had around being stuck in 9-to-5 jobs that aren't necessarily centered around what we actually enjoy doing.  We balance that out by coming home and playing in bands, making beads, writing awful jokes, etc., etc.,  

Balance.  And being able to recognize when you are out of balance.  

[LMNO]

For the record, by "Monty Python" i meant people embodying the sketches, not the process behind it.


I agree with Rat about the work ethic of the pythons.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

For the record, by "Monty Python" i meant people embodying the sketches, not the process behind it.


I agree with Rat about the work ethic of the pythons.

Sorry I was just trying to use that to exemplify Sense/Nonsense working in tandem

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

If you confuse your peer with your audience [while flinging nonsense disguised as sense], then your shooting your communication channel in the foot.

In mosbunionall situations, eh?