Thoughts on a Conversation With NavCat

[Kai]

Fix the roof, buy new books, install a computer network, institute a 10/1 student/teacher ratio, and pay teachers at a level you would expect to pay someone who was building the future you're going to live in, and see what happens.

Of course people will complain "theres too many people flooding the job market", but if you sell education, a lot of those people will become teachers (and theres always a shortage of teachers), which means more people will become better educated, which means more people will become teachers....

Before you know it, we'll be exploring the surface of Mars with our new fusion technology soon after describing all species on earth and programming bacteria to cure AIDS and cancer.

Also, Iptuous, if the teachers give a shit the students end up giving a shit too. Having financial security is a good motivator.

[LMNO]

Aw, shucks.  Kai just outed me as an optimist.   

[Triple Zero]

The majority of inner-city and lower-income schools have outdated materials, overcrowded classrooms, collapsing infrastructure, and teachers make salaries only around $35k/year.

And even then, they are forced to cut sports and arts programs because they can't afford it.

Fix the roof, buy new books, install a computer network, institute a 10/1 student/teacher ratio, and pay teachers at a level you would expect to pay someone who was building the future you're going to live in, and see what happens.

Don't get me wrong, that would be nice... and my mom's been a teacher for 35 years, so i understand the problems there too, but....
I have no proof (although i'm sure there's some 'pilot program' out there that has done just that), but i would suspect that you would get a classrom with a nice roof, shiny books (with updated maths and spelling and such), whizbang computers, lots of well paid teachers, and 10 students who still don't give a shit....

pfff i dont think so.

SOME kids in puberty may appear like they dont give a shit, but even they pick up some useful stuff from their education. and from what I've seen the amount of stuff they pick up is more related to their capacity for learning than whether they give a shit or not.

however, when you have shitty classrooms, old books and underpaid teachers, it becomes a whole lot easier to simply not give a shit and don't learn anything.

at least that's what I have seen in my own education. even the biggest rebels and not-give-a-shitters got to the level of education they were capable of, sometimes it took them a few years extra to account for not-giving-a-shit, but given quality education, they mostly got there. and if not a diploma, they learned a lot of useful stuff.

[Elder Iptuous]

i can buy that... seems like a no-brainer...
why do the effects attenuate after 4th grade though?  i'm guessing that's about the time that the kiddos figure out that they are forced to do this even though they don't want to anymore...  so how do you fix that problem?
perhaps it has to do with the 'auxiliary education' that trip points out, and failure on the part of the parents to take an active role in the education of their kids...

[LMNO]

why do the effects attenuate after 4th grade though?  

Where do you see that?  I can't find the quote.

[Triple Zero]

what age, generally, is 4th grade? (you have a different system than we do over here)

[LMNO]

8 or so.  However, I'm still trying to find where he got the quote that the effects decrease after 4th grade.

[Kai]

I can give an easy answer.

Middle School.

Or more universally and specifically,

Puberty.

[Elder Iptuous]

Where do you see that?  I can't find the quote.

I guess i made a leap there on that one...

A consensus of research indicates that class size reduction in
the early grades leads to higher student achievement. Researchers are more cautious about the question of
the positive effects of class size reduction in 4th through 12th grades.

i guess i just assumed that meant that the results showing positive link between classroom improvement and achievement after 4th grade was more contentious....
maybe that's just me reading into it what i expect?....

Kai, i do agree with you to a point about teacher motivation, but i've watched many of my mother's teacher friends come into the profession brimming with enthusiasm and getting worn down to the point of burnout because the fact is, some schools become a daycare where they also happen to be required to teach some standardized testing... (that's overstating and generalizing, i know) i went to many good schools growing up and if the students had a motivation for education instilled by their parents/community, the schools worked well.  in crappy neighborhoods where this value on education wasn't present, the schools worked poorly.  i don't think pouring money on them would change anything.... i guess that's all i was saying. (but teachers in general should make more than they do, i agree)

[Requia ☣]

As to the pay teachers more thing, the median and average salary for teachers are both 40-44k (depending on position).  The national median wage is about 26k.

Some states (IE Tennessee) are much worse of course.

[Kai]

Where do you see that?  I can't find the quote.

I guess i made a leap there on that one...

A consensus of research indicates that class size reduction in
the early grades leads to higher student achievement. Researchers are more cautious about the question of
the positive effects of class size reduction in 4th through 12th grades.

i guess i just assumed that meant that the results showing positive link between classroom improvement and achievement after 4th grade was more contentious....
maybe that's just me reading into it what i expect?....

Kai, i do agree with you to a point about teacher motivation, but i've watched many of my mother's teacher friends come into the profession brimming with enthusiasm and getting worn down to the point of burnout because the fact is, some schools become a daycare where they also happen to be required to teach some standardized testing... (that's overstating and generalizing, i know) i went to many good schools growing up and if the students had a motivation for education instilled by their parents/community, the schools worked well.  in crappy neighborhoods where this value on education wasn't present, the schools worked poorly.  i don't think pouring money on them would change anything.... i guess that's all i was saying. (but teachers in general should make more than they do, i agree)

Teachers ie community. If teachers are good they'll reach out to the community and to the parents. The motivation has to start somewhere, it isn't just a circle with no beginning and no end.

[LMNO]

Kai, i do agree with you to a point about teacher motivation, but i've watched many of my mother's teacher friends come into the profession brimming with enthusiasm and getting worn down to the point of burnout because the fact is, some schools become a daycare where they also happen to be required to teach some standardized testing... (that's overstating and generalizing, i know) i went to many good schools growing up and if the students had a motivation for education instilled by their parents/community, the schools worked well.  in crappy neighborhoods where this value on education wasn't present, the schools worked poorly.  i don't think pouring money on them would change anything.... i guess that's all i was saying. (but teachers in general should make more than they do, i agree)

Question1: Why do some schools become a daycare?
Question2: Why do some schools rely soley on standardized testing?

Answer1: Often because the classes are too large to engender actual education, combined with inadequate teaching materials.
Answer2: Because when reduced to Regulation of classes versus Education of classes, repitition of knowledge takes the place of learning.

Additional funds to reduce class size and supplement materials would help both situations.

[Requia ☣]

As to the pay teachers more thing, the median and average salary for teachers are both 40-44k (depending on position).  The national median wage is about 26k.

Some states (IE Tennessee) are much worse of course.

Median wage for a college graduate is apparently 48k, so teachers do sacrifice somewhat.

[LMNO]

Is this over their entire career?

[Kai]

As to the pay teachers more thing, the median and average salary for teachers are both 40-44k (depending on position).  The national median wage is about 26k.

Some states (IE Tennessee) are much worse of course.

Median wage for a college graduate is apparently 48k, so teachers do sacrifice somewhat.

Requia, is this a tight distribution or a broad bell with long tails? I'm guessing its the latter.