QUESTION: What is your poltical affiliation?

[KopyKat253]

Disorder

[Cain]

I like how Slanket qualified an Anarchist as a dumbass, and someone still voted for it.

Two somebodies now.  I've been an Anarchist for a long time.  I think it's funny that when you call it libertarian socialism it's ok but when you call it Anarchism it's not.  even though the two mean the same damn thing.

You realize anarchy is impossible to achieve right? Even if you could achieve it, why would you want it?

Not impossible, they did it in Spain.  And the Ukraine.  It was crushed by communism, but it still existed and didn't fall for internal reasons.

Why would I want it, because it means we only have to deal with one another's monkeys at the lowest level, not amplified by being in power.  people are not inherently good, so there's no way we can trust anyone to rule.

Would that be the Spanish Anarchists who accepted government cabinet positions with the Republicans?

Besides, if all a political system has going for it is that "it gets crushed constantly by other systems", then that only really leaves a very altruistic and moral argument to back it up.  Most people are not going to accept a system of social organization that has consistently failed and been defeated in the face of others.

[Cain]

What did they do in Spain and Ukraine? When or how was this anarchy that actually worked?

What Anarchism means is that the power to make decisions is in the hands of the people, there is no higher authority. 

Of course, the Bolsheviks said the same thing, only with a few more mentions of the working class, the inevitability of History, Hegel and dialectics.

And the winners of the American revolution, only with some stuff about tea and private property.

And modern day liberals, only with much wringing of hands.

And Benito Mussolini, with the caveat that he was the representation of the True Will of the people.

And Christian Identity adherents, with the caveat that the only real people are white Christian males.

And so on and so forth.  Lots of movements give tons of lip service to "giving power to the people", and what they all have in common is that they have exceptions, and are bullshit

[Triple Zero]

Don't forget the executioners operating the electric chairs.

[Messier Undertree]

I'm the bad type of socialist who literally wants to take all of your money and give it to lazy people.

I was pretty extreme a few years ago, but I am more Clement Attlee than Vladimir Lenin these days.

[KopyKat253]

I'm the bad type of socialist who literally wants to take all of your money and give it to lazy people.

I thought that was called Welfare?

[Triple Zero]

I'm the bad type of socialist who literally wants to take all of your money and give it to lazy people.

Pff that sounds like work, can't I get someone else to take everybody's money and give it to the lazy?

[KopyKat253]

I'm the bad type of socialist who literally wants to take all of your money and give it to lazy people.

Pff that sounds like work, can't I get someone else to take everybody's money and give it to the lazy?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What did they do in Spain and Ukraine? When or how was this anarchy that actually worked?

The error most people make in thinking about anarchism is assuming that it simply means a complete lack of order, which is impossible. What Anarchism means is that the power to make decisions is in the hands of the people, there is no higher authority.  it is a system which requires a much more involved and empowered populous to maintain than any other, but that doesn;t mean it isn't worth it.

That right there is what terrifies me.
People. Because they're kind of awful to one another, especially when teacher's gone.

What kind of order do people use without hierarchy?

"Gimme your sammich."

[BabylonHoruv]

What did they do in Spain and Ukraine? When or how was this anarchy that actually worked?

The error most people make in thinking about anarchism is assuming that it simply means a complete lack of order, which is impossible. What Anarchism means is that the power to make decisions is in the hands of the people, there is no higher authority.  it is a system which requires a much more involved and empowered populous to maintain than any other, but that doesn;t mean it isn't worth it.

That right there is what terrifies me.
People. Because they're kind of awful to one another, especially when teacher's gone.

What kind of order do people use without hierarchy?

there's quite a few ways to organize without hierarchy.  And yeah, people are quite often awful to one another, the problem is, if one person is in charge, they automatically get license to be awful.  governing doesn't work precisely because people are shits, you can't trust any of them to run things.

[Salty]

What did they do in Spain and Ukraine? When or how was this anarchy that actually worked?

The error most people make in thinking about anarchism is assuming that it simply means a complete lack of order, which is impossible. What Anarchism means is that the power to make decisions is in the hands of the people, there is no higher authority.  it is a system which requires a much more involved and empowered populous to maintain than any other, but that doesn;t mean it isn't worth it.

That right there is what terrifies me.
People. Because they're kind of awful to one another, especially when teacher's gone.

What kind of order do people use without hierarchy?

there's quite a few ways to organize without hierarchy.  And yeah, people are quite often awful to one another, the problem is, if one person is in charge, they automatically get license to be awful.  governing doesn't work precisely because people are shits, you can't trust any of them to run things.

What are those ways?

I don't see how anarchy would stop people from being shits, but I do see how those shits would act if there weren't any police officers around. Some of them would beat the living fuck out of people like me without a second thought, any chance they could get, and they would get to do it as often as they like because without The Man[tm], there would be no repercussions.

What kind of system  would anarchy use to prevent that kind of behavior?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

What did they do in Spain and Ukraine? When or how was this anarchy that actually worked?

The error most people make in thinking about anarchism is assuming that it simply means a complete lack of order, which is impossible. What Anarchism means is that the power to make decisions is in the hands of the people, there is no higher authority.  it is a system which requires a much more involved and empowered populous to maintain than any other, but that doesn;t mean it isn't worth it.

That right there is what terrifies me.
People. Because they're kind of awful to one another, especially when teacher's gone.

What kind of order do people use without hierarchy?

"Gimme your sammich."

or under the current system:

*ZAP with Taser*

"*We're taking your sammich as material evidence... but we're not charging you with anything. If we determine your sammich is not a threat we will return it to you. The process should take less than a year.

Oh? What was that?

Well, it not our problem if the sammich will be rotten by then, Citizen."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What did they do in Spain and Ukraine? When or how was this anarchy that actually worked?

The error most people make in thinking about anarchism is assuming that it simply means a complete lack of order, which is impossible. What Anarchism means is that the power to make decisions is in the hands of the people, there is no higher authority.  it is a system which requires a much more involved and empowered populous to maintain than any other, but that doesn;t mean it isn't worth it.

That right there is what terrifies me.
People. Because they're kind of awful to one another, especially when teacher's gone.

What kind of order do people use without hierarchy?

"Gimme your sammich."

or under the current system:

*ZAP with Taser*

"*We're taking your sammich as material evidence... but we're not charging you with anything. If we determine your sammich is not a threat we will return it to you. The process should take less than a year.

Oh? What was that?

Well, it not our problem if the sammich will be rotten by then, Citizen."

Whose fault is that?  Oh, yeah, the people who vote for candidates that will be "tough on crime".

It turns out that I am not forced to choose between endorsing anarchy and endorsing police states.

[Salty]

What did they do in Spain and Ukraine? When or how was this anarchy that actually worked?

The error most people make in thinking about anarchism is assuming that it simply means a complete lack of order, which is impossible. What Anarchism means is that the power to make decisions is in the hands of the people, there is no higher authority.  it is a system which requires a much more involved and empowered populous to maintain than any other, but that doesn;t mean it isn't worth it.

That right there is what terrifies me.
People. Because they're kind of awful to one another, especially when teacher's gone.

What kind of order do people use without hierarchy?

"Gimme your sammich."

or under the current system:

*ZAP with Taser*

"*We're taking your sammich as material evidence... but we're not charging you with anything. If we determine your sammich is not a threat we will return it to you. The process should take less than a year.

Oh? What was that?

Well, it not our problem if the sammich will be rotten by then, Citizen."

People suck, especially when they have authority.
But also especially when there's none.

Authority gives people license to do whatever they want as long as they don't piss off, or upset the balance of authority.

And the same goes for lack of authority.

Either way, the nature of the limits, socially imposed or otherwise, is the only thing keeping people from eating each other in the streets. That, and electricity.

I just don't see how Anarchy is supposed to solve the Asshole Factor.

[LMNO]

Chapter 57

Authority rules through miscommunication.
Wars are waged by pandering to fears.
The world can be won by joining opposites:
Tell people what they want to hear, and they will follow.
Make them think like apes, and they will act like monkeys.
Relieve them of their responsibilities, they will call you wise.
Show them what they fear, they will call you just.

Therefore, the wise spags say,
"Pay no attention to the speeches of Authority,
but listen instead to what the audience is hearing.
And if at all possible,
try to be the one making the speech."


Chapter 58

When Authority imposes Order, people become angry.
When Authority allows Freedom, people become nervous.
To allow for mistakes means accepting mistakes;
To enforce Order ensures future punishment.
The people want Freedom, but at others' expense.
The people want Order, but only to justify their actions.
Therefore the wise spags disrupt Order,
And organize Freedom,
And freely create their illusions.