A Rant.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I really feel like crying ...

I was arguing with my best friend, she thinks its horrible that I want to raise a child and that my limit should be "I can be an uncle, but I can't have children" ... I really flipped after that. I told her to stop and I don't want to talk any further but she pushed it ... Who is in the wrong, me or her? And it went really sour after that .... tl dr version - "Its just all about you? Other people have to abide by what you want?" .. minus all the other crap.

Fucking hell what the hell is friendship

... Ok good I'm over that shit, I'm ready to kill a Mother fucker.

Ditch her, she's no friend. Fuck that shit! She is wrong for pushing her views on you, you are right for defending yours.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also I would like to take this opportunity to confess a tinge of selective homophobia myself. I'm fine with it until I see two guys kissing, then I'm all, like "Eeeeeeeew!"

I'm fine with it until I see two guys kissing, too, and then I'm all, like 

God damn those homosexuals for turning me on in public!

Actually it kind of grosses me out when people make out in public, but I think it's cute when they give each other those familiar little smooches that couples do.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, ask her what she thinks of single mothers, and if she doesn't have a problem with that, force her to explain what makes them different.

[NotPublished]

I don't like seeing people make out in public, but the small pecks are just damn adorable thats true!

But thanks Nigel, I think I will try just that.

It really suprises me how people can be so shallow and think that they can apply their views onto everyone else (I used that arguement to), what REALLY suprised me was two of her gay friends (People I know to) backed HER up about it being wrong to be parents ... That they think its really bad.

I really want to snap them out of this, but I'm not going to go out of my way...

Is this how a Christian feels when they meet someone they have to convert? 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

what REALLY suprised me was two of her gay friends (People I know to) backed HER up about it being wrong to be parents ... That they think its really bad.

Meh, one of the leading holocaust deniers is a self-loathing Jew, so I am completely unsurprised at that sort of belly-crawling.

[BabylonHoruv]

Pretty clearly at the moment we are not in our ideal environment, we evolved for a situation that is more similar to the environment of a chimpanzee troupe. 

That's precisely what we're in.

No, it's really not.  Chimps in a troupe have powerful ties with others in their troupe, they watch out for one another.  We don't have those tight knit small groups anymore, or at least most of us don't.  There is conflict within the troupe naturally, but they are also there to support and watch out for one another.  That extended family/tightknit community has eroded gradually over the past 50 or 60 years and we have the "nuclear family" concept as our dominant family unit now.  The nuclear family is (IMO) a very unhealthy environment for children to be raised in.  The fact it is also breaking up doesn't strike me as any great tragedy because hopefully alternate models such as single parenting and whatnot will lead back in the direction of a more community oriented means of living.

[BabylonHoruv]

I personally hold that the perfect ideal is a mixed sex couple

Why?

Biology.  We've evolved in a setting where children are raised by mixed sex parents supported by an extended community.  That's my assumption as the ideal setting for a child.

Do you have any evidence for the family setting/gender arrangement of Austrailopithecus afarensis or even Homo erectus? Or furthermore, even the rift valley Homo sapiens sapiens? I think you are making up many just so stories without evidence for evolutionary process. Not only that, but you fail to give evidence about /why/ it's ideal. What is it about that setting that is ideal, and what is it about same sex parenting that's not ideal? Repeating the above isn't going to cut it.

You are right, I don't know how any of those species lived.  I only know what most people know about that sort of thing.  And the reason I am saying it is ideal is not because of any inherent superiority to the arrangement, just because we have evolved into that environment.  As has been said before the brain is a black box in a lot of ways, that includes childhood development.  I wont start in on gender archetypes or the oedipus complex or any of that because there's a good chance a lot of that is funny hats and not the useful sort.  There are also a lot of obvious factors that are more important in measurable ways.  It just makes sense to me that in an evolutionary scenario the way things have been for a very long time is going to be the ideal situation.  

(also yes I do know that I am basically just repeating what I already said.  I am hopefully also clarifying it.  I want to make it clear that I am in no way trying to imply that children of same sex parents are being disadvantaged by the fact their parents are the same sex.  Any more so than children of mixed race parents are being dsadvantaged (as an example of something else that can be a challenge for the child but that doesn't mean it should in any way stand as an obstacle to it occuring.)

That's funny, because it sounds like the same sort of shallow mask over bigotry that I was ranting against. My bad.

Yeah, I clearly saw myself being pushed into that position by the posts of several different people.  I have been trying to demonstrate that if there is any prejudice at the base the mask on top is at least pretty thick because I do wholeheartedly support gay marriage and gay adoption without any preference being given to heterosexuals in either of those arrangements.  I'm also not trying to defend the nuclear family with one male and one female as superior in child raising to two adults of the same gender.  I think both are woefully inadequate.

((edited for spelling))

[BabylonHoruv]

Selective homophobia? Liek "I can get my head around the fact that yo're teh gh3y and still accept you but onoez keep away from babiez!"

He's gay?  (I'm a little slow sometimes.)

Wait.  This should stop him from raising kids?  OH, I GET IT.  She's one of those "homosexuals are all also child molesters" assholes.

NP, she is not your friend.  She does not have your best interests at heart.  Dump her and find some friends that don't think you're a monster.

I doubt it is that.  There are a lot of people who don't think gays should be raising children for a couple of reasons that are not justifiable but are at least a bit less evil.  One is that children of gays are more likely to be gay (which is not true or at least has never been verified and has been falsified repeatedly)  And the other is that children of gays are more likely to be ridiculed and face difficult social situations as children, which is true, but is still not much of a justification, the same was true of children of mixed race couples until very recently and still is in many places and should not stand as any barrier to them having children.  The parents just have to be sure to properly prepare the children for what they may face.  Also with generational trends regarding acceptance of homosexuality it looks like this will be much less of a problem for any children NP or any other homosexual might adopt or birth than it has been for people of our generation or older who were raised by homosexuals.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I doubt it is that.  There are a lot of people who don't think gays should be raising children for a couple of reasons that are not justifiable but are at least a bit less evil. 

If they want to deny equal protection under law, I don't care what their motives are.  They're monsters.  End of story.

[Bu🤠ns]

KAI: ! UNG!!! YEAH THATS THE SHIT I'M FUCKING TALKING ABOUT!!

[Elder Iptuous]

If they want to deny equal protection under law, I don't care what their motives are.  They're monsters.  End of story.

Just for clarification...
Is everybody here talking about policy?
'cause that's an entirely different animal than 'people should do this...' or 'people should do that....'
Were the people overheard in the OP discussing policy?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If they want to deny equal protection under law, I don't care what their motives are.  They're monsters.  End of story.

Just for clarification...
Is everybody here talking about policy?
'cause that's an entirely different animal than 'people should do this...' or 'people should do that....'
Were the people overheard in the OP discussing policy?

Who do you think supports these policies?  Who do you think allows them?

Monsters.

[Elder Iptuous]

If they want to deny equal protection under law, I don't care what their motives are.  They're monsters.  End of story.

Just for clarification...
Is everybody here talking about policy?
'cause that's an entirely different animal than 'people should do this...' or 'people should do that....'
Were the people overheard in the OP discussing policy?

Who do you think supports these policies?  Who do you think allows them?

Monsters.

There are plenty of people that have firm opinions about this type of people, or that type of people, and whether they should raise children or not.  But they would vociferously oppose that this be enforced by law.
I think it is an important distinction to make...

But, perhaps I am overestimating people, and the large majority of them would have enforced by law anything they deem 'right and wrong'...

I'd like to think not, though...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But, perhaps I am overestimating people, and the large majority of them would have enforced by law anything they deem 'right and wrong'...

For evidence that this is the case, I direct you to the Gay Marriage debate, and the results of propostion 8 and susequent decisions.

[Elder Iptuous]

But, perhaps I am overestimating people, and the large majority of them would have enforced by law anything they deem 'right and wrong'...

For evidence that this is the case, I direct you to the Gay Marriage debate, and the results of propostion 8 and susequent decisions.

Obvious truth is obvious....