You know, Cainad, Salinger was a fucking jackass.

[Suu]

A lot of people seem to miss the fact that Holden was crazy.  Like, really crazy, not wacky crazy.

It's been well over a decade since I read it, but I recall a part where he is concerned he will not make it to the other side of the street.  I remember reading that part and suddenly a light bulb went off.  "Ah, this all now makes sense."

I disagree, I think he had a very different point of view than the rest of the world around him. His brother was a psychotherapist and his parents were rich enough to not give a fuck about him, so of COURSE the entirety of the book would be him narrating his 3 day ordeal in NYC to a shrink. They think there is something wrong with him because he left school, so they locked him up because they could afford it and didn't really care otherwise rather than approach the problems he could be facing. Problems that essentially any teenager could face. It's about reaching the point in maturity when childhood meets adulthood, and being apprehensive about growing up. He's displeased with the way the world is changing around him, and it depresses him. He describes his younger sister as having similar point of views on things as him as well. This doesn't make him "crazy".

Its the same idea as putting a 15 year old girl on antidepressants today because she is having hormonal mood swings, but instead claiming she's bipolar and crazy and letting the drugs doing the parenting.

The book is very relevant even 50 years later.

For most of the book I would agree with you, but toward the end of the book he clearly becomes unglued.  It's been over a decade since I read it but there is a part when he is wandering around the town and is afraid he won't be able to get to the other side of the street, either because the street will be gone, or he will be... I can't quite remember.  I will find the passage tonight when I get home and quote it in this thread... but that is not just a different point of view, that's crazy.

You could be interpreting it differently than I am though.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree with Hoops, I think.  In the beginning of the book, he's just an angsty, un-social kid.

At the end, he's in a serious breakdown, if not outright insane.

[Suu]

Well, New York City DOES have that effect on people, doesn't it?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well, New York City DOES have that effect on people, doesn't it?

Not on me.  I love that town.  Especially Brooklyn.  It is the only place I love that loves me back.

[hooplala]

You could be interpreting it differently than I am though.

Oh, certainly.  Without a doubt.

[Triple Zero]

Equating J.D. Salinger with his most famous character, Holden Caulfield, is probably fallacious, but the important part is that Holden, while not crazy, is infuriating and immature. I could only sympathize with him so far, before my moping gland was squeezed dry and and I wanted to kick him in the butt and hand him a ticket to go skydiving or some shit.

I dunno. Maybe it's a point that makes the most sense to people who felt the same way I did about Catcher in the Rye. In retrospect, maybe we can re-interpret the author's intention as trying to infuriate the reader with Holden's inability to cope with a world that isn't as honest and real as he wanted it to be. And maybe I should stop typing before my mind goes completely off the rails.

It's not just fallacious. It's idiotic. It makes absolutely no sense. Not only that, but everything the OP expressed was expressed much better in Salinger's own Franny and Zooey, which, as I mentioned, did not rock my world, but was at least well-written and comprehensible.

It's not particularly clear whether Holden Caulfield was meant to be a sympathetic character. When I attempted to read Catcher in the Rye, I made it barely 20 pages in before realizing it was unlikely that I would sympathize with Caulfield or enjoy the book, so I stopped. Salinger was certainly a skilled enough writer to invent deeply flawed protagonists. As much as Catcher in the Rye is a 7th-grade classic, I'm not sure the average 7th-grader is sophisticated enough to really grasp the depth of characters who are more meant to be examined than to be emulated.

My suggestion to Alty; explore the Holden Caulfield angle a little more. Stop conflating the author with the character. Clarify that you are writing about your own fears rather than projecting a life of which you are fearful on an author you know too little about. This could be a good piece, with some reworking.

wow.

can we say "thread roont" now?

[Suu]

You could be interpreting it differently than I am though.

Oh, certainly.  Without a doubt.

When we read this in school, the different ways the students took it was vast. So it doesn't surprise me that even as we have this discussion that there would be differences. There really is no right or wrong interpretation either though, and it's hard to say what Salinger may have wanted us to think, since, well, he never told anyone.

[hooplala]

Equating J.D. Salinger with his most famous character, Holden Caulfield, is probably fallacious, but the important part is that Holden, while not crazy, is infuriating and immature. I could only sympathize with him so far, before my moping gland was squeezed dry and and I wanted to kick him in the butt and hand him a ticket to go skydiving or some shit.

I dunno. Maybe it's a point that makes the most sense to people who felt the same way I did about Catcher in the Rye. In retrospect, maybe we can re-interpret the author's intention as trying to infuriate the reader with Holden's inability to cope with a world that isn't as honest and real as he wanted it to be. And maybe I should stop typing before my mind goes completely off the rails.

It's not just fallacious. It's idiotic. It makes absolutely no sense. Not only that, but everything the OP expressed was expressed much better in Salinger's own Franny and Zooey, which, as I mentioned, did not rock my world, but was at least well-written and comprehensible.

It's not particularly clear whether Holden Caulfield was meant to be a sympathetic character. When I attempted to read Catcher in the Rye, I made it barely 20 pages in before realizing it was unlikely that I would sympathize with Caulfield or enjoy the book, so I stopped. Salinger was certainly a skilled enough writer to invent deeply flawed protagonists. As much as Catcher in the Rye is a 7th-grade classic, I'm not sure the average 7th-grader is sophisticated enough to really grasp the depth of characters who are more meant to be examined than to be emulated.

My suggestion to Alty; explore the Holden Caulfield angle a little more. Stop conflating the author with the character. Clarify that you are writing about your own fears rather than projecting a life of which you are fearful on an author you know too little about. This could be a good piece, with some reworking.

wow.

can we say "thread roont" now?

Why?  Because she doesn't agree?

So rants are basically just circle jerks?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thanks, Hoopla.

If this was in "Bring & Brag" I might offer writing critique, but I wouldn't debate the content. It's not in Bring & Brag, so I assumed the content was fair game.

I don't think anything I said was out of place or out of line, especially considering the title of the rant. And I meant my last sentence.

[Triple Zero]

No for creating a big deal about something that's obviously not the point of the rant.

[hooplala]

Here's the passage I mentioned earlier, feel free to interpret as you will about the intended mindset of the central character:


Anyway, I kept walking and walking up Fifth Avenue, without any tie on or anything.  Then all of a sudden, something very spooky started happening.  Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddam curb, I had this feeling that I'd never get to the other side of the street.  I thought I'd just go down, down, down, and nobody'd ever see me again.  Boy, did it scare me.  You can't imagine.  I started sweating like a bastard–my whole shirt and underwear and everything.  Then I started doing something else.  Every time I'd get to the end of a block I'd make believe I was talking to my brother Allie.  I'd say to him, "Allie, don't let me disappear.  Allie, don't let me disappear.  Allie, don't let me disappear.  Please, Allie."  And then when I'd reach the other side of the street without disappearing, I'd thank him.  Then it would start all over again as soon as I got to the next corner.  But I kept going and all.  I was sort of afraid to stop, I think–I don't remember to tell you the truth.  I know I didn't stop until I was way up in the Sixties, past the zoo and all.

[Suu]

Here's the passage I mentioned earlier, feel free to interpret as you will about the intended mindset of the central character:


Anyway, I kept walking and walking up Fifth Avenue, without any tie on or anything.  Then all of a sudden, something very spooky started happening.  Every time I came to the end of a block and stepped off the goddam curb, I had this feeling that I'd never get to the other side of the street.  I thought I'd just go down, down, down, and nobody'd ever see me again.  Boy, did it scare me.  You can't imagine.  I started sweating like a bastard–my whole shirt and underwear and everything.  Then I started doing something else.  Every time I'd get to the end of a block I'd make believe I was talking to my brother Allie.  I'd say to him, "Allie, don't let me disappear.  Allie, don't let me disappear.  Allie, don't let me disappear.  Please, Allie."  And then when I'd reach the other side of the street without disappearing, I'd thank him.  Then it would start all over again as soon as I got to the next corner.  But I kept going and all.  I was sort of afraid to stop, I think–I don't remember to tell you the truth.  I know I didn't stop until I was way up in the Sixties, past the zoo and all.

Hmm, I didn't remember that part. (It's been over 10 years for me too.) Thanks for the passage.

[hooplala]

No problem!  It was easier to find than I had feared it might be.

[Salty]

Not reading far enough to realize that the man had been remarried, and making erroneous assumptions about the man in general was a Fuck-up. Certanly makes ME feel like a jackass. And for that I'm grateful, because it means more stupid out of my system.

So, I think it improved the thread.


Er...I mean everyone STFU AND KEEP THOSE MITTENS ROLLING!

[hooplala]