Roger, it turns out you were right all along

[Cain]

Also, while I'm here, ECH, if this is about undertaking a project at another site, why does anything need to be done to this place at all?  While we can all sit around and discuss our innermost feelings about Teh Fluff, its entirely irrelevant to the point of this thread.  I mean, honestly, who gives a fuck?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Um.

I think that if things do continue in this vein, it is very likely that a lot of the creative people here WILL seek more fertile grounds, simply by default of not especially enjoying being derided when they're doing anything besides busily creating someone's idea of "content".

[Freeky]

This thread, and the bickering in general, is totally depressing. I'd flounce if it weren't for the fact that there isn't anything else to do but post on PD for me.

Just saying.

[Cain]

Perhaps.  What I had in mind was that it actually doesn't really do much, except shut the other side up.  Its the verbal equivalent of aerial bombing - causes a big mess and just manages to further entrench people in their particular worldview.  It changes very little, if anything.  And similar reactions by people who hold the opposing view are just the same.  If changing this site's attitude towards fluff is the goal, then discussion and reasoned argument is the way to do it, persuasively arguing one's position and causing others to rethink theirs.

Since this about starting a particular project, with its own standards and goals elsewhere, the fluff nonsense only deserved to be brought up as a peripheral issue, instead of being made into the main point of contention.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Perhaps.  What I had in mind was that it actually doesn't really do much, except shut the other side up.  Its the verbal equivalent of aerial bombing - causes a big mess and just manages to further entrench people in their particular worldview.  It changes very little, if anything.  And similar reactions by people who hold the opposing view are just the same.  If changing this site's attitude towards fluff is the goal, then discussion and reasoned argument is the way to do it, persuasively arguing one's position and causing others to rethink theirs.

Since this about starting a particular project, with its own standards and goals elsewhere, the fluff nonsense only deserved to be brought up as a peripheral issue, instead of being made into the main point of contention.

OK, I totally agree with you. However, I did not at all get that the point of this thread was "Hey, let's go start this project" rather than "hey, the shit you people are posting here sucks".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am not saying that everything that is posted here is worth reading. For instance, the comic book threads and game threads are a complete waste of bandwidth.

[Doktor Howl]

I am not saying that everything that is posted here is worth reading. For instance, the comic book threads and game threads are a complete waste of bandwidth.

Not to the people enjoying them.

[Cain]

Perhaps.  What I had in mind was that it actually doesn't really do much, except shut the other side up.  Its the verbal equivalent of aerial bombing - causes a big mess and just manages to further entrench people in their particular worldview.  It changes very little, if anything.  And similar reactions by people who hold the opposing view are just the same.  If changing this site's attitude towards fluff is the goal, then discussion and reasoned argument is the way to do it, persuasively arguing one's position and causing others to rethink theirs.

Since this about starting a particular project, with its own standards and goals elsewhere, the fluff nonsense only deserved to be brought up as a peripheral issue, instead of being made into the main point of contention.

OK, I totally agree with you. However, I did not at all get that the point of this thread was "Hey, let's go start this project" rather than "hey, the shit you people are posting here sucks".

It certainly seems to have morphed through the discussion.  I don't think a single person can be blamed (people pick up on a point, other people argue against it, insults start being thrown around and the argument becomes a point of honour rather than a simple disagreement), but someone should've attempted to rectify it before now.

The central point definitely could've been made better, too, which doesn't help.

[Dr. Paes]

I am not saying that everything that is posted here is worth reading. For instance, the comic book threads and game threads are a complete waste of bandwidth.

Not to the people enjoying them.

Troof.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am not saying that everything that is posted here is worth reading. For instance, the comic book threads and game threads are a complete waste of bandwidth.

Not to the people enjoying them.

That is exactly the point I am trying to make.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Perhaps.  What I had in mind was that it actually doesn't really do much, except shut the other side up.  Its the verbal equivalent of aerial bombing - causes a big mess and just manages to further entrench people in their particular worldview.  It changes very little, if anything.  And similar reactions by people who hold the opposing view are just the same.  If changing this site's attitude towards fluff is the goal, then discussion and reasoned argument is the way to do it, persuasively arguing one's position and causing others to rethink theirs.

Since this about starting a particular project, with its own standards and goals elsewhere, the fluff nonsense only deserved to be brought up as a peripheral issue, instead of being made into the main point of contention.

OK, I totally agree with you. However, I did not at all get that the point of this thread was "Hey, let's go start this project" rather than "hey, the shit you people are posting here sucks".

It certainly seems to have morphed through the discussion.  I don't think a single person can be blamed (people pick up on a point, other people argue against it, insults start being thrown around and the argument becomes a point of honour rather than a simple disagreement), but someone should've attempted to rectify it before now.

The central point definitely could've been made better, too, which doesn't help.

Thank you for being a voice of reason. I think that I am often too vested in sarcasm to make a point properly.

Nigel (raised without formal debating skills)

[Cain]

I am not saying that everything that is posted here is worth reading. For instance, the comic book threads and game threads are a complete waste of bandwidth.

Its a difficult line to draw, I agree.  I think a certain level of fluff is necessary and unavoidable, and trying to clamp down on it is impossible.  At the same time, my creative processes seem very similar to 000, in that mainly the creative productions of others are what inspire me, and I find too much personal chat to be draining (this could be because of my partially introspective nature, I will admit).  Therefore I think its a question of striking the balance, rather than siding with entirely one side or the other.

It also may be a simple fact of sociology that when you reach a certain number of people, with a certain amount of shared history and interactions in other arenas, that those sort of conversations proliferate.  No-one can be creative all the time, but by writing about mostly personal events and goings ons, they may be able to get attention, or sympathy, or at least some form of interest from others (most people want to be polite, even if such a topic doesn't interest them that much).  And while that is, in my opinion, a lesser form of attention than the kind of attention creative output produces, its also a much easier one to obtain.  It also gives people a licence to talk about their own life and personal events, and get things off their chest.  It then becomes a sort of feedback loop, as it becomes more acceptable and easier to do.  I know I was certainly guilty of this kind of behaviour, when I was going through a rough patch and had nearly no-one (that is, no-one IRL) who was interested in listening.  It is something I'm trying to stop doing, because I recognise it is contributing to something I dislike, but I can see how people fall into it, as a pattern of behaviour.

Thats me trying to look at the fluff thing from a sympathetic POV anyway.

[Iason Ouabache]

Didn't we already do this thread 3 months ago?   Let me know when you bitches are done whining.

[Cain]

Didn't we already do this thread 3 months ago?   Let me know when you bitches are done whining.

Probably.  I'm hoping interjecting some reason into this dispute, instead of merely relying on the usual tactics of this place (complain, COMPLAIN LOUDER, threaten, get emotional, refuse to talk to people) might actually resolve something.

It might not.  But the other way doesn't seem to be working.

[Cain]

Thank you for being a voice of reason. I think that I am often too vested in sarcasm to make a point properly.

Nigel (raised without formal debating skills)

That's perfectly alright.  It's nice to have a discussion like this, where we both come from different positions, yet are trying to move towards some sort of common ground, or at the very least evaluate points of disagreement in an open and considered manner.