Roger, it turns out you were right all along

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am not saying that everything that is posted here is worth reading. For instance, the comic book threads and game threads are a complete waste of bandwidth.

Its a difficult line to draw, I agree.  I think a certain level of fluff is necessary and unavoidable, and trying to clamp down on it is impossible.  At the same time, my creative processes seem very similar to 000, in that mainly the creative productions of others are what inspire me, and I find too much personal chat to be draining (this could be because of my partially introspective nature, I will admit).  Therefore I think its a question of striking the balance, rather than siding with entirely one side or the other.

It also may be a simple fact of sociology that when you reach a certain number of people, with a certain amount of shared history and interactions in other arenas, that those sort of conversations proliferate.  No-one can be creative all the time, but by writing about mostly personal events and goings ons, they may be able to get attention, or sympathy, or at least some form of interest from others (most people want to be polite, even if such a topic doesn't interest them that much).  And while that is, in my opinion, a lesser form of attention than the kind of attention creative output produces, its also a much easier one to obtain.  It also gives people a licence to talk about their own life and personal events, and get things off their chest.  It then becomes a sort of feedback loop, as it becomes more acceptable and easier to do.  I know I was certainly guilty of this kind of behaviour, when I was going through a rough patch and had nearly no-one (that is, no-one IRL) who was interested in listening.  It is something I'm trying to stop doing, because I recognise it is contributing to something I dislike, but I can see how people fall into it, as a pattern of behaviour.

Thats me trying to look at the fluff thing from a sympathetic POV anyway.

I have to say, I think that while spouting about your personal troubles may be embarrassing, it also, IME, not only helps people through rough patches and creates sympathy, but also, especially if you learn to create an element of hyperbole around it, encourages creative writing.

Fuck sake, look at Roger and Richter, and you yourself, writing about being at work. Boring fucking subject, right? Sure, until you fucking WRITE about it, and build a borderline mythology around your experiences.

[Cain]

Hmm, this is interesting, I want to pick this apart a bit.

For me there is a fairly big difference to a creative piece based on a (for example) work related event and talk about it.  It's hard to define, but the level of effort and engagement that goes into it is certainly a factor, though there are certainly others.  I think I'm generally a lot more sympathetic to what could be considered fluff when effort, creativity and an engaging spectacle arise from it, like most people, even if it's not something I personally find interesting.  Someone mixing their experiences with creative effort, I can appreciate that, if only for the work and time it took.

But here is a counter-example, I've thought of.  People, especially in Apple Talk, like to occasionally post links to Youtube, with little or no content, and maybe a smiley, as individual threads.  That doesn't annoy me because there is already a thread for Youtube links (well, OK, it annoys me a little bit for that reason), but more because I don't see any reason to click on it, or why the person in question posted it, except perhaps to share an experience they enjoyed.  What I would find far more interesting is if the person took a short time, maybe only even a couple of lines, to tell us why they wanted to share that, or what about it appealed to them.  That gives me something to work with, to converse about.  Otherwise, I'm just being invited to be a spectator, to consume a particular piece of media without reference or reason.  Sometimes a reason isn't needed, of course.  But I enjoy discourse, and dialogue.  I much prefer to discuss and dissect something with people than merely share the experience with them.  And this can be something as stupid as Family Guy's overreliance on gag humour and pop culture references, or as important as how we're being steadily reduced to serfdom by a rapacious ruling class.  And everything inbetween.

Maybe that's the key, the interaction angle.  I don't find myself able to interact well on a fluff level.  No, I tell a lie:  I am uncomfortable with interacting on a fluff level, even if I'm forced to do it in my everyday life.  When I'm presented with stories of peoples everyday lives, where there are no specific problems, or nothing I can do except maybe commiserate, I find that deeply unsatisfying.  Commiseration may help a person feel better about their situation, but without a problem to solve, a moral to draw, a point of some description or other that can lead into a wider, more fruitful and interesting discussion, I find myself getting annoyed and bored.  It feels like I am being made into a spectator or consumer of their personal drama and turmoil, something I can only watch and not participate in or connect with.

If more personal drama or experiences were dealt with in the above-described creative manner, then I might be OK with it.  But it seems to be increasingly the case that the site is treated as a personal support society of the distinctly boring and derivative kind.  A lot of sites seem to develop along this route, including the aforementioned TCC, MW, Cellar etc where you have a tight knit group who are intimate with each other's lives in many ways.  However, that same tight-knittedness does not seem to have served those sites well, making them distinctly uninteresting (except in a kind of bizarre, anthropological manner, in the same way a cargo cult of David Hasselhoff might be interesting) and uncreative.  It may be these are unrelated, and that correlation does not equal causation.  But at the same time, it doesn't look or feel very good.  Even if they are harmless quirks of such sites, I would rather not replicate them, since I think it diminishes something of the unique nature of PD.com, which was of course a draw for many of us here, and helps attract other creative and intelligent people.

[Cain]

And while I'm still awake, I probably say some words on "the program" which has so mysteriously been alluded to several times in this post.

Note: this will involve a PD.com history lesson.  Yes, it will be boring.  No, this will not deter me.  Yes, the 500 forum error at 22:16 (UK time) was because I was doing a search related to this.

Basically, it was 2005.  And everything sucked.  The Warlord had been reconfirmed as leader of the free world, people we knew were dying in Iraq and Afghanistan for no good reason anyone could provide, evil bastards were boarding trains wearing vests packed with explosives and jabbering morons the world over were having the time of their lives.  

Now some of the more politically minded of us were not especially happy with that.  And we felt, as Discordians, this Evil Empire act was getting old, real fast.  And maybe, as adherents of chaos in some sense, it would be entirely inappropriate to throw sand in some gears and generally be a nusciance to the powers that be.  However, a lot of Discordians seemed to be OK with the act, so long as they were allowed to invent cute titles for themselves and jabber endlessly about fnords, right until the day the theocrats stuck them in a cage and allowed children to poke them with sticks.

There was also a desire to be more active generally.   There was a lot of stuff going on in the forum but, well, you've seen the stuff that was being written around then, I don't have to tell any of you how embarrasing it all is.  A lot of hot air was getting used up, but there was nothing like coordinated pranking or trolling going down, no PosterGASM or spreading malicious rumours.  In all honesty, it sucked pretty bad.

When PD was mostly abandoned in 2006 for EB&G and their boarding of MysticWicks, things got pretty quiet over here.  Some old timers held on, but with Lauren doing her absentee slumlord act, the site could be down for days without anyone fixing it.  At some point, RWHN created his Discordian Network forum, and many of the old timers here, like Net, ECH, LMNO and myself went over there to continue on some work that had started on these boards - namely trying to update and rewrite some of the key ideas of the PD.  This eventually metamorphosed into the BIP Project, but not without a lot of controversy beforehand.

When Lauren decided to abandon PD.com The Glorious Revolution of the 12th of October happened, ECH wanted this to be a place for those sort of Discordians to use to network, bounce ideas off each other, communicate and work on shared projects.  The idea was the more Pagan-y or less politically interested Discordian could go to somewhere like EB&G, 23ae, POEE or even Myspace (if they were really unlucky), and this place would be for the sort of Discordian who wanted to take a more active role in the world, be it through O:MF, challenging peoples views or outright subversion.

However, we wanted to operate the forum on a fairly open policy of free speech and minimum moderation, both for generally ideological reasons, and because of the bullshit moves certain mods pulled on here back in the day, secretly editing the posts of people they disliked, harassing them with alts, selectively outing troll accounts and general shitiness.  That meant people who weren't interested in such things, but still wanted to hang out here were more than welcome to do so, as long as they weren't trying to actively disrupt those who were working on things, or otherwise try and get those responsible for the forum into legal trouble.

And its from that period on that most people know of the forum, at least most people on here now, so I wont bore you with the rest of it.

Now it is quite likely the project may have changed in certain ways through the passage of time and change in internet culture we've seen over the past five years.  The Warlord is gone, though the Boy Prince seems content to legitimize his actions in most ways.  Christian theocrats still stalk the halls of power.  Technocratic elites still seek to reduce government to the rational application of order, eliminating all random factors (including, you know, the input of voters) from the systems of social control.  At the same time, blogs and new media have become more important.  Hacking has found a new relevance as a possible weapon of war.  New powers are blinking in the dawn of a post-American century, and discovering the meaning of multi-polarity.  All these, as well as the personal, intellectual and spiritual journeys of those who may have considered themselves part of the original program will no doubt have an impact on what we hope to do today.  But I think the essentials are still there.  

And it might be the case that HIMEOBS is a better vehicle for such things.  Discordian, while attracting many of the right sort of wierdoes and crazies, also attracts many sorts who may not be interested in such a thing, even though they are very capable and intelligent people, or people who I wouldn't trust alone with a toothbrush (because they'd invariably try to do something "wacky" with it, and I'd end up inserting it far up their rectum).  Since this is something I retain an interest in, however, I think it is worth a shot.  And I think THAT was the original, obscured point of this thread.

[Dr. Paes]

  to Cain.
The original, obscured point of this thread is relevant to my interests.

I wonder, is HIME0BS an effective tool for this, still?
Am I wrong in thinking that in the past, Googling HIMEOB5 would give you a small amount of disinformation and nothing else?
Now it links to here, urban dictionary (which while still containing the misinformation also just says "a bunch of trolls"), a (declassified?) guide to trolling, Verwirrung and the channel on Maddshark. Is H1MEOBS too outed to be used as it was?

[Faust]

I am not saying that everything that is posted here is worth reading. For instance, the comic book threads and game threads are a complete waste of bandwidth.

Its a difficult line to draw, I agree.  I think a certain level of fluff is necessary and unavoidable, and trying to clamp down on it is impossible.  At the same time, my creative processes seem very similar to 000, in that mainly the creative productions of others are what inspire me, and I find too much personal chat to be draining (this could be because of my partially introspective nature, I will admit).  Therefore I think its a question of striking the balance, rather than siding with entirely one side or the other.

It also may be a simple fact of sociology that when you reach a certain number of people, with a certain amount of shared history and interactions in other arenas, that those sort of conversations proliferate.  No-one can be creative all the time, but by writing about mostly personal events and goings ons, they may be able to get attention, or sympathy, or at least some form of interest from others (most people want to be polite, even if such a topic doesn't interest them that much).  And while that is, in my opinion, a lesser form of attention than the kind of attention creative output produces, its also a much easier one to obtain.  It also gives people a licence to talk about their own life and personal events, and get things off their chest.  It then becomes a sort of feedback loop, as it becomes more acceptable and easier to do.  I know I was certainly guilty of this kind of behaviour, when I was going through a rough patch and had nearly no-one (that is, no-one IRL) who was interested in listening.  It is something I'm trying to stop doing, because I recognise it is contributing to something I dislike, but I can see how people fall into it, as a pattern of behaviour.

Thats me trying to look at the fluff thing from a sympathetic POV anyway.

I have to say, I think that while spouting about your personal troubles may be embarrassing, it also, IME, not only helps people through rough patches and creates sympathy, but also, especially if you learn to create an element of hyperbole around it, encourages creative writing.

Fuck sake, look at Roger and Richter, and you yourself, writing about being at work. Boring fucking subject, right? Sure, until you fucking WRITE about it, and build a borderline mythology around your experiences.

Thats not the kind of thing I'm complaining about, I was talking about no effort stuff. For the sake of everyone's peace of mind I will drop this and explain why I've been a dick for the last day, Much earlier on in the thread I pointed I made a flippant statement about attacking people over crappy threads, someone took it literally and said I should do that so I proceeded to do so as if it would prove some point. I'm sorry if I caused you any offence.

[Triple Zero]

(comment removed by me)

[Triple Zero]

I have to say, I think that while spouting about your personal troubles may be embarrassing, it also, IME, not only helps people through rough patches and creates sympathy, but also, especially if you learn to create an element of hyperbole around it, encourages creative writing.

I, for one, did not come to PD.com for the creative writing. Cain said it, in 2005, just after I joined here, there was lots of stuff going on. I was there too, at RWHN's Discordian Network forum, participating in the discussions, even though I never wrote a full piece for the BIP.

A couple of people here are extremely good at creative writing, and I enjoy reading their works, but it is not the sole raison d'etre of PD and also should not be, IMO.

If something encourages creative writing, but also harms activity and productivity in other creative areas, I don't think that's a reason to pick one over the other.

We don't need to polarize it either. But I do feel that I am wading through inordinate amounts of fluff to get to the discussions I really want to sink my teeth in. And yeah, I'm probably partly guilty of that too. But just staying silent just cuts one voice from the murmuring crowd, nobody notices.


Also, I want to echo Nigel's thanks to Cain for being the voice of reason. As well as the history lesson

[Elder Iptuous]

excellent history lesson.
wish i had that to read when i came here.
perhaps a 'mission statement' or an 'about' page would be useful for newbies?
or even a sticked thread?
'cause when i came here i wouldn't have guessed that that was the primary purpose for this place, and i'm guessing it's even less likely that a newbie would take it as such now....

[maphdet]

You know...of course I did not read all the pages in this thread....However, I would like to thank those that keep it (this site) running  (however it may be or whatever it may have turned to or will turn to or had been turned to).

I came here via someone who told me that like minded people are here to bounce shit off each other...the rest was my hope that one day, if that day came, that I would be able to help in the effort to rise up against the fucking cabbages/ignorant/fucked up people (although, that is hard to distinguish as EVERYONE has a different thought/belief/rationalization) and make a REAL LIFE IN PERSON change. (IMO writing till our/your eyes are blue can do not so much as can RL actions. Further than posting bumper stickers on some walls)

....'Till then, I come here to remind myself that I am not what I may think to be at times.

hmmm, That may not make sense to some, and that's ok.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Cain: That was an excellent history lesson and re-condensing of what ECH was getting at for someone who didn't fucking get it, ie. me.

Faust: You know what, I'm sorry for giving you shit. I did take you seriously and should have known better.

Also, ECH, I know from experience that you are a stand-up guy. I am sorry for completely misreading your argument. I can only offer in explanation that I had no idea what you were talking about until Cain clarified. Also, you know me. As always, I am down for any culture-jamming of other mischief you might propose.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Maphdet, if you really think writing does not effect social change, you haven't been paying attention.

Also, 000, I know that not everyone is interested in or capable of creative writing. This is not a writer's forum; it just happens that some of the people who like to contribute here are writers, and good ones. Read it or not, it's still A contribution.

As is Cram's LARP. Which makes me feel inutterably old and confused, but which is a damn contribution. As is PosterGasm and LMNO's music thing and all the other shit in that vein. We ARE doing things.

I agree that we should think about it before we post a new thread; if it's not an amusing story, if it's not something we're going to put time into and make funny and good, maybe a whole fucking thread does not need to be started about it. Am I a hypocrite?

OF COURSE I AM.

One thing I  have noticed over the course of my life is that everyone adheres to certain principles, but makes exceptions for themselves. I am a fucking hypocrite, I do the exact things I bitch about, and it's just as fucking annoying when I do it.

[maphdet]

Hmm I guess you are right in a way Calamity Nigel. However, I did not really say that writing does not effect a social change. Just that I am here for when that change does come through to a form other than writing, that I will be here to stand and fight for what I feel is worth fighting for. Also I am here to read the writing on the wall to allow me to rethink my position on myself and beliefs. If I did not think that writing caused thought process, I would not be here. But in reality I want more...If I can ever get outta my comfort zone (but that's a different thread).

So my statement of : (IMO writing till our/your eyes are blue can do not so much as can RL actions. Further than posting bumper stickers on some walls) came across in different way, my apologies.



Just trying to say that the writing on the walls helps ourselves realize. However, it does not bring forth the realization to Being.

Again, just my thoughts-and sometime those don't even make sense to me.

[Dysnomia]

to cain


Honestly, if I was better at it, I'd post some creative shit.  But I just don't think I am, and a lot of what other people right just blows me away so much that I don't feel as though I have much to contribute.  I'm definetely most comfortable in Apple Talk, even though it's major fluff because it's a nice mental break for me.  I get to be silly, random, and batshit insane without people judging me, which is something that I'm not used to.  IRL I've learned to keep myself tucked away in a neat little box, so when I get here the other side of my personality sorta explodes.  If that bothers people I apologize as I've never meant to bother anyone.  If it REALLY bothers people I suppose I could always pack up my shit over to EB&G so I'm not a bother to anyone. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Please just don't tell me we have to hug and make up now. I hate that shit.

[Dysnomia]

Please just don't tell me we have to hug and make up now. I hate that shit.

HUGGING


Not that we were ever fighting.  But I like hugs, especially with hawt laydeez like Nigel.