Is karma real? (Short answer: HAHAHA not for you, you stupid hippy.)

[Lies]

that's what RAW wrote about. He was about to become really hardened to this world because of the terrible experience his daughter had.

And instead, he was astonished by his daughter's ability to forgive -- despite the enormous injustice that was transferred onto her.

That's what he meant by "stopping the karma wheel". When you've been destroyed, it's really really difficult to not rekindle that destruction and pass it on to everybody else. But if we want to live in a better world, (and I know, not everybody does) we have to transcend those basic revenge impulses because they will keep getting bounced back between one another forever.

I don't think of it as revenge so much as preventative measures, if someones obviously a repeat offender of a brutal and sadistic crime, throw them in a place far far away from anyone else, where they can be as brutal and sadistic as they like with all the flora and fauna a desert environment can provide.

And of course, I'll forgive them enough to leave them a bottle of water and a gun with 1 bullet in it.

Do this with enough violent psychopaths and they'll have their own little area where they can turn karmic ripples onto themselves.

Yes yes, I know I know, the families and people who actually *give a shit* about these psychopaths, suffering loss ect...
Better that the psychopath is free to abuse/bring shame/brainwash their family and friends and in the case of violent psychopath parents, raise their kids in a manner that only perpetuates the violent psychopath line, OR remove said psychopath from society where his wheel cannot effect the wheels of everyone he gets close to, and then putting in place programs designed to help/rehabilitate/counsel all those that are related or have any association with said violent psychopath?

See, I may not be very enlightened, and I probably don't "get" Karma, but I still think that letting "moving" karma wheels around everyone else's karma wheels is bad idea, and while people may still suffer in some shape or form by "eliminating" the violent psychopaths, it's a most likely going to be a lesser reaction then what could have the violent psychopath would have inflicted by letting them "Be" and "Forgiving" them.

And if forgiveness seems to be the whole "key" to stopping the Karmic wheel... why not just forgive them *after* they're long gone and never to be seen or heard from again?

(Dispite the apparent tone/nature/side I appear to be taking here... I do agree with Cram/Buddha for the *most* part. It's just certain things just bug me about this whole "stopping the wheel" theory/philosophy and I'm trying to see how this works when taken to *extremes*. I can dig say, forgiving your neighbor for sleeping with your wife or something (and consequently forgiving your wife), crimes of lust/passion shouldn't be met with such extreme measures, but crimes of violence/sexual assault where  the perpetrator is a repeat offender and obviously beyond and hope of saving... what do you do? *Forgive* them? *HOW?* Allow them to be at large in society to do as they please and ruin everyone else's lives? If not doing what I'm suggesting, then *what*?

[Cramulus]

you can put every "evil" person in the middle of the desert and let them hate fuck each other until red dawn

and people are still going to steal from you and fuck you up



the thing is, while the impulse to go save the world is very noble ---
(and yo, I agree that putting all those thugs in jail would be a Good act, and would totally prevent a lot more people from getting stabbed)

--- you can't change the universe all that much. Putting those thugs in jail isn't going to prevent different thugs from doing anything. So if we accept that we cannot ultimately prevent harm and suffering, what are we left with?

we just have to learn to function in a universe which occasionally deals us really shitty cards.

The universe isn't an observer, a removed third person. The universe is you and me and everybody in between. We're all dealers - and to some extent we can choose whether we deal a nice hand or a shitty hand.


It's that line from the black iron prison - we can't change the entire machine, but we can influence the local parts. And if enough of us do this, the entire machine will change.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think there are two confused concepts here:

1. Punishment of Criminal
2. Forgiveness within a Victim

That is, there is not an either/or requirement.

If Connie gets raped, Bob can go beat the fuck out of the Rapist... However, Connie still has to decide how to internalize her experience... She could go around being pissed off that something bad happened to her, she could rant about the evils of Men and how terrible and scary life is as a woman. These actions, will 'continue' the negative wheel of Karma, because she will be more negative and react more negatively to external events.

On the other hand, she can 'stop' the Wheel... recognize that this bad thing happened and determine that it will not change her perceptions about the world, choosing to consciously provide more positive reactions to external events.

Bob's punishment of the Perp is separate from Connie's decision on how the event will affect her.

[Lies]

I think there are two confused concepts here:

1. Punishment of Criminal
2. Forgiveness within a Victim

That is, there is not an either/or requirement.

If Connie gets raped, Bob can go beat the fuck out of the Rapist... However, Connie still has to decide how to internalize her experience... She could go around being pissed off that something bad happened to her, she could rant about the evils of Men and how terrible and scary life is as a woman. These actions, will 'continue' the negative wheel of Karma, because she will be more negative and react more negatively to external events.

On the other hand, she can 'stop' the Wheel... recognize that this bad thing happened and determine that it will not change her perceptions about the world, choosing to consciously provide more positive reactions to external events.

Bob's punishment of the Perp is separate from Connie's decision on how the event will affect her.

I like what you're saying and this fit's with what I'm thinking about this whole thing, seems to smooth the rough edges out on this hole karmic wheel thing. Thanks Rat, you are my short term honorary Buddha, until a more satisfying theory/explanation comes along.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think there are two confused concepts here:

1. Punishment of Criminal
2. Forgiveness within a Victim

That is, there is not an either/or requirement.

If Connie gets raped, Bob can go beat the fuck out of the Rapist... However, Connie still has to decide how to internalize her experience... She could go around being pissed off that something bad happened to her, she could rant about the evils of Men and how terrible and scary life is as a woman. These actions, will 'continue' the negative wheel of Karma, because she will be more negative and react more negatively to external events.

On the other hand, she can 'stop' the Wheel... recognize that this bad thing happened and determine that it will not change her perceptions about the world, choosing to consciously provide more positive reactions to external events.

Bob's punishment of the Perp is separate from Connie's decision on how the event will affect her.

I like what you're saying and this fit's with what I'm thinking about this whole thing, seems to smooth the rough edges out on this hole karmic wheel thing. Thanks Rat, you are my short term honorary Buddha, until a more satisfying theory/explanation comes along.

Oh great, now I have to go kill myself on the road.... 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Sokay, dude, just meet me and I'll do it for ya 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Sokay, dude, just meet me and I'll do it for ya 

um... Thanks?

[BADGE OF HONOR]

there's definitely some truth to that

there's one lady in my office who is ALWAYS smiling, ALWAYS helpful, and in turn, ALWAYS having a good day. It's infectious!

There's definitely a law of fives kind of filter in place there, which works like this --


If we go back to our discussions about Shrapnel, the idea is that we are constantly being bombarded by shrapnel, and some of it will become a part of us. And meanwhile, we are constantly blasting out shrapnel with everything we do.

So if I believe in Karma in any sense, it is that you tend to identify / experience / not filter out the kind of shrapnel you send out. If you go around bitter and sour, you will find more bitter and sour shrapnel stuck to you. If you go around being awesome, you will encounter more awesome stuff. I think it's the best argument for optimism.

This.  There's been a couple studies lately that show that attitudes and moods really are infectious--humans being social creatures, they pick up others' moods subconsciously, and react subconsciously.  (Side note--I wonder if it's related to how people can't think about an emotion without making the facial expression associated with that emotion)  To put it simplistically, you teach people how to treat you.  If you're constantly negative, other people will associate you with negativity, and subconsciously treat you negatively, which makes you even more negative.

I do think a lot of what's being called karma (in this thread even) is just the westernized trope of god punishing the wicked, with god replaced by karma.  I don't think karma has much to do with punishment at all, unless it's generalized punishment of the entire human race.

[Captain Utopia]

So if I believe in Karma in any sense, it is that you tend to identify / experience / not filter out the kind of shrapnel you send out. If you go around bitter and sour, you will find more bitter and sour shrapnel stuck to you. If you go around being awesome, you will encounter more awesome stuff. I think it's the best argument for optimism.

A few years back I started a temporary job in somewhat unusual circumstances - I knew no-one there and there was never going to be any contact between those folk and anyone else I knew.  So I experimented, and found it really easy to change aspects of my personality - little tweaks here, radical changes there.

But in existing relationships I find it near-impossible to enact similar levels of self-change.  As if people I know only except the types of shrapnel that they've come to expect from me.

So if that's my personal karma, what's the cure?

[Cramulus]

good question!

I think that people make meaning for the world using narratives.

When somebody's personality changes, there is usually a narrative to "explain" it.

"He's been much friendlier ever since his kid was born."

"She just hasn't been the same since the car accident."

"He hasn't been getting a lot of sleep since the new job started."


I think the answer is somewhere in there -
- you create a narrative in which change is possible

[Nephew Twiddleton]

there's definitely some truth to that

there's one lady in my office who is ALWAYS smiling, ALWAYS helpful, and in turn, ALWAYS having a good day. It's infectious!

There's definitely a law of fives kind of filter in place there, which works like this --


If we go back to our discussions about Shrapnel, the idea is that we are constantly being bombarded by shrapnel, and some of it will become a part of us. And meanwhile, we are constantly blasting out shrapnel with everything we do.

So if I believe in Karma in any sense, it is that you tend to identify / experience / not filter out the kind of shrapnel you send out. If you go around bitter and sour, you will find more bitter and sour shrapnel stuck to you. If you go around being awesome, you will encounter more awesome stuff. I think it's the best argument for optimism.

This.  There's been a couple studies lately that show that attitudes and moods really are infectious--humans being social creatures, they pick up others' moods subconsciously, and react subconsciously.  (Side note--I wonder if it's related to how people can't think about an emotion without making the facial expression associated with that emotion)  To put it simplistically, you teach people how to treat you.  If you're constantly negative, other people will associate you with negativity, and subconsciously treat you negatively, which makes you even more negative.

I do think a lot of what's being called karma (in this thread even) is just the westernized trope of god punishing the wicked, with god replaced by karma.  I don't think karma has much to do with punishment at all, unless it's generalized punishment of the entire human race.

That's the kind of karma I can buy into. Makes more sense in its original context rather than the My Name is Earl thing.

Though, aside from it being a great show it does kinda go with the change in attitude posts ITT. Earl starts off doing good things because he's afraid of bad karma, but throughout the progression of the show actually becomes a good guy independently of karma.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

good question!

I think that people make meaning for the world using narratives.

When somebody's personality changes, there is usually a narrative to "explain" it.

"He's been much friendlier ever since his kid was born."

"She just hasn't been the same since the car accident."

"He hasn't been getting a lot of sleep since the new job started."


I think the answer is somewhere in there -
- you create a narrative in which change is possible

Effect precedes cause 

[Kai]

Karma can be summed up in a single phrase:

"Formations have inertia."

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I tend to agree, Lys, that in some forms, Karma is used to justify inaction.

But, Karma is a quite diverse concept that means many different things.

It's gained a bastardized, generic definition like "Zen" in the West, where people get a sense of what you're talking about in spite of it having little specific reference to it's origins.

Some people see it as another word for cause and effect, some add a moral valence in varying ways, and for some it all pans out in the afterlife.

I generally think of it in similar terms that Rumckle and Badge have brought up, though in a rather amoral context like Pent.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Who the hell are you calling an amoral context?