On the socialization of children

[LMNO]

Oh, put a sock in it.  We know about emergent structures, we have a fairly good idea about how they work.

You yourself agreed that conciousness seems to be an emergent structure.  So why then should we abandon everything we know about emergent structures in this case?  What makes this one so unique and special?

[P3nT4gR4m]

AFAIK the data we have on emergent structures would be just as likely to support any afterlife theory as to disprove them. Emergent structures are replicable are they not? They can be recorded which, in itself constitutes a state change. Psychology is learning that many of the components of consciousness conform to cookie-cutter norms. What we don't know is what percentage of the whole constitutes an "individual" as opposed to how much is unique. Maybe it's a lot less than we might imagine. Maybe a good autobiography in addition to a base template would be enough to reconstruct a "soul". Probably not but the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. So who's to say that, at some point in the future, we may have the technology to revive a complete consciousness? The consciousness wouldn't necessarily be aware that any time had passed, just as it wouldn't necessarily be aware that it was a facsimile of the original. To all intents and purposes that's an afterlife.

There are so many potential ways to skin the proverbial cat that I can't help thinking it's a very narrow minded view to rule out every possibility on the grounds of absolutely no data. I'm a strong advocate of science (it gives us internet porn after all) but I do think it fosters a very narrow minded and limited view, in a lot of ways, by it's very nature. Science's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness, the reluctance to embrace possibility, simply because that possibility doesn't fit with it's current prejudice.

Many of the great scientists have been ones who have thought outside the box. The ones who have been prepared to suffer the scorn and ridicule of the scientific establishment and stick to their guns and lo the earth was proven to not be flat, nor the centre of the universe, light could be bent, god did play dice ...

[LMNO]

What's interesting is that since you're arguing the "no one knows" point of view, Kai's idea should be just as equally valid to you as anything else you can think of.  Yet you never mention that possibility.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Already have actually - mentioned I was about 50-50 in favour of it. Point is I'm not the one saying that it's one way or the other. That's the "scientist" that's reached that conclusion. And he's such a ninja scientist he's even managed to do it with absolutely no research or data.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Oh, put a sock in it.  We know about emergent structures, we have a fairly good idea about how they work.

You yourself agreed that conciousness seems to be an emergent structure.  So why then should we abandon everything we know about emergent structures in this case?  What makes this one so unique and special?

Consciousness MAY be an emergent structure. That emergent structure MAY rely entirely on the  neurological system of the person... OR... The emergent structure may be made of something else and the neurological system may simply be the way in which the emergent structure of consciousness interacts with external stimuli.... OR... consciousness may not be emergent at all...

No matter how we dice it, there's a lot of OR there.

What's interesting is that since you're arguing the "no one knows" point of view, Kai's idea should be just as equally valid to you as anything else you can think of.  Yet you never mention that possibility.

I'd disagree, mostly because Kai didn't say "maybe", "possibly" or "or"... Kai stated:

A person is the emergent property of neurology. When death occurs, the whole system breaks down, the cells decompose, the atoms are passed to other organic and inorganic states. The person is gone, because the network is gone.

No more correct than "And the soul is transformed in the blink of an eye and joins the LORD in heaven."

[LMNO]

Just so I understand you, would you agree that conciousness is somehow related to the brain?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Just so I understand you, would you agree that conciousness is somehow related to the brain?

Current evidence suggests that consciousness, or at least the measurement of consciousness is related to the neurological system. Since we have functional humans that appear to have little/no brain matter I think that's probably the best we can say.

[LMNO]

Yeah, I gotta let this one drop.  I was mistaken earlier in saying there was little common ground.


There is no common ground here.  As it turns out, we were barstooling all along.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

However, given that most definitions of consciousness... and indeed the root concept tends to be related to 'subjective experience'  (in Latin 'joint or common knowledge'). Perhaps we're arguing with a semantic assumption that is unwarranted.

That is, if we presume that shared knowledge/experience is a prerequisite of consciousness... then without the neurological system, we could not have consciousness as we currently know/understand it.

Perhaps the problem lies in labeling whatever might exist 'post-death' as 'consciousness'. Perhaps it should be given a different label?

[Adios]

WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.

It is, on the other hand, probably possible to know what happens *just* before you die.

I understand you've flatlined twice on the op table... ever try DMT? Apparently, your body releases a lot of that shit into your brain as you are dying...
I've tried it. Freakiest thing is, I remember the experience being the most intense psychedelic trip I have to date experienced... but as you come down from it, it very quickly removes the experience from your conscious memory, leaving only a shadow of an intangable memory to hold onto, much like when you wake up from a dream and then forget it except for tiny bits and pieces that can sort of come back if you try. You know how you *know* a lot went on during the dream, but you can't remember most of it, and what you can remember, sort of feels like how when you have a word on the tip of your tongue but it just won't come?

I think maybe there's something to DMT, that it contains *some* secret about the mysteries of death... not that it's what death is, but more so, is one of the "stages" of death... and for some reason, our brain tries to protect us from those memories of what goes on when you're close to death.
Of course, maybe I'm just some drugged up hippy confusing chemical hallucinations for reality. (Whatever "that" is).

I don't use drugs for recreational purpose except caffeine, cigarettes and alcohol.

All I can say my experience was utter, absolute and complete nothingness.

[Lies]

WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.

It is, on the other hand, probably possible to know what happens *just* before you die.

I understand you've flatlined twice on the op table... ever try DMT? Apparently, your body releases a lot of that shit into your brain as you are dying...
I've tried it. Freakiest thing is, I remember the experience being the most intense psychedelic trip I have to date experienced... but as you come down from it, it very quickly removes the experience from your conscious memory, leaving only a shadow of an intangable memory to hold onto, much like when you wake up from a dream and then forget it except for tiny bits and pieces that can sort of come back if you try. You know how you *know* a lot went on during the dream, but you can't remember most of it, and what you can remember, sort of feels like how when you have a word on the tip of your tongue but it just won't come?

I think maybe there's something to DMT, that it contains *some* secret about the mysteries of death... not that it's what death is, but more so, is one of the "stages" of death... and for some reason, our brain tries to protect us from those memories of what goes on when you're close to death.
Of course, maybe I'm just some drugged up hippy confusing chemical hallucinations for reality. (Whatever "that" is).

I don't use drugs for recreational purpose except caffeine, cigarettes and alcohol.

All I can say my experience was utter, absolute and complete nothingness.

So, like the "place/state" you go to after your fall asleep, but before you start dreaming? (If that makes any sense...)

[Adios]

WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.

It is, on the other hand, probably possible to know what happens *just* before you die.

I understand you've flatlined twice on the op table... ever try DMT? Apparently, your body releases a lot of that shit into your brain as you are dying...
I've tried it. Freakiest thing is, I remember the experience being the most intense psychedelic trip I have to date experienced... but as you come down from it, it very quickly removes the experience from your conscious memory, leaving only a shadow of an intangable memory to hold onto, much like when you wake up from a dream and then forget it except for tiny bits and pieces that can sort of come back if you try. You know how you *know* a lot went on during the dream, but you can't remember most of it, and what you can remember, sort of feels like how when you have a word on the tip of your tongue but it just won't come?

I think maybe there's something to DMT, that it contains *some* secret about the mysteries of death... not that it's what death is, but more so, is one of the "stages" of death... and for some reason, our brain tries to protect us from those memories of what goes on when you're close to death.
Of course, maybe I'm just some drugged up hippy confusing chemical hallucinations for reality. (Whatever "that" is).

I don't use drugs for recreational purpose except caffeine, cigarettes and alcohol.

All I can say my experience was utter, absolute and complete nothingness.

So, like the "place/state" you go to after your fall asleep, but before you start dreaming? (If that makes any sense...)

Well, I don't know. I certainly wasn't even aware of any of it until I was told after waking. I guess just nothingness is best as inadequate as it is.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.

It is, on the other hand, probably possible to know what happens *just* before you die.

I understand you've flatlined twice on the op table... ever try DMT? Apparently, your body releases a lot of that shit into your brain as you are dying...
I've tried it. Freakiest thing is, I remember the experience being the most intense psychedelic trip I have to date experienced... but as you come down from it, it very quickly removes the experience from your conscious memory, leaving only a shadow of an intangable memory to hold onto, much like when you wake up from a dream and then forget it except for tiny bits and pieces that can sort of come back if you try. You know how you *know* a lot went on during the dream, but you can't remember most of it, and what you can remember, sort of feels like how when you have a word on the tip of your tongue but it just won't come?

I think maybe there's something to DMT, that it contains *some* secret about the mysteries of death... not that it's what death is, but more so, is one of the "stages" of death... and for some reason, our brain tries to protect us from those memories of what goes on when you're close to death.
Of course, maybe I'm just some drugged up hippy confusing chemical hallucinations for reality. (Whatever "that" is).

I don't use drugs for recreational purpose except caffeine, cigarettes and alcohol.

All I can say my experience was utter, absolute and complete nothingness.

So, like the "place/state" you go to after your fall asleep, but before you start dreaming? (If that makes any sense...)

Well, I don't know. I certainly wasn't even aware of any of it until I was told after waking. I guess just nothingness is best as inadequate as it is.

How does/did this effect how you feel about death, if at all?

[Lies]

WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.

It is, on the other hand, probably possible to know what happens *just* before you die.

I understand you've flatlined twice on the op table... ever try DMT? Apparently, your body releases a lot of that shit into your brain as you are dying...
I've tried it. Freakiest thing is, I remember the experience being the most intense psychedelic trip I have to date experienced... but as you come down from it, it very quickly removes the experience from your conscious memory, leaving only a shadow of an intangable memory to hold onto, much like when you wake up from a dream and then forget it except for tiny bits and pieces that can sort of come back if you try. You know how you *know* a lot went on during the dream, but you can't remember most of it, and what you can remember, sort of feels like how when you have a word on the tip of your tongue but it just won't come?

I think maybe there's something to DMT, that it contains *some* secret about the mysteries of death... not that it's what death is, but more so, is one of the "stages" of death... and for some reason, our brain tries to protect us from those memories of what goes on when you're close to death.
Of course, maybe I'm just some drugged up hippy confusing chemical hallucinations for reality. (Whatever "that" is).

I don't use drugs for recreational purpose except caffeine, cigarettes and alcohol.

All I can say my experience was utter, absolute and complete nothingness.

So, like the "place/state" you go to after your fall asleep, but before you start dreaming? (If that makes any sense...)

Well, I don't know. I certainly wasn't even aware of any of it until I was told after waking. I guess just nothingness is best as inadequate as it is.

Well, I like to think that the state after falling unconscious but before you start dreaming is a state of nothingness... I mean, you probably have trouble conceptualizing what I'm talking about cus it's kinda a state where nothing happens and well, you'd have a lot of trouble remembering/acknowledging it since... it's a state of nothing.
But yeah, point being, there's a brain state of unconsciousness you go into, right after your consciousness seperates from the outside reality, and before you enter REM state, which is the state in which you dream, there's a period of complete zen nothingness...
It's hard to talk about, and hard to conceptualize, but I swear I know what I'm talking about... but I suppose it doesn't matter anyway...

Nothingness, check. I can work with what your saying.

[Adios]

WTF.

No matter how pretty the dress you put on this the simple fact is NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DIE.

There is NO WAY to know.

It is, on the other hand, probably possible to know what happens *just* before you die.

I understand you've flatlined twice on the op table... ever try DMT? Apparently, your body releases a lot of that shit into your brain as you are dying...
I've tried it. Freakiest thing is, I remember the experience being the most intense psychedelic trip I have to date experienced... but as you come down from it, it very quickly removes the experience from your conscious memory, leaving only a shadow of an intangable memory to hold onto, much like when you wake up from a dream and then forget it except for tiny bits and pieces that can sort of come back if you try. You know how you *know* a lot went on during the dream, but you can't remember most of it, and what you can remember, sort of feels like how when you have a word on the tip of your tongue but it just won't come?

I think maybe there's something to DMT, that it contains *some* secret about the mysteries of death... not that it's what death is, but more so, is one of the "stages" of death... and for some reason, our brain tries to protect us from those memories of what goes on when you're close to death.
Of course, maybe I'm just some drugged up hippy confusing chemical hallucinations for reality. (Whatever "that" is).

I don't use drugs for recreational purpose except caffeine, cigarettes and alcohol.

All I can say my experience was utter, absolute and complete nothingness.

So, like the "place/state" you go to after your fall asleep, but before you start dreaming? (If that makes any sense...)

Well, I don't know. I certainly wasn't even aware of any of it until I was told after waking. I guess just nothingness is best as inadequate as it is.

How does/did this effect how you feel about death, if at all?

It didn't affect me at all. Dying is the only thing I am guaranteed to not fuck up in this life. Here is how dead I looked before the OR incidents.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4571043&id=701145431