Psychedelics question

[Triple Zero]

(re: two posts ago)

Well, yes, but I wasn't talking about children in particular. Most people I know with ADD/ADHD are in their 20s.

Okay to be quite honest, I was talking about me. They upped my dosage a little while ago (which actually works pretty well), and my doc indeed checks my blood pressure when I visit him, but since I'm taking this stuff daily, while not in abusive (I think) amounts of course, but the new dosage is about what I guess someone would take before going to a rave or something. So either both me and the raver will have higher risk of aortarial splattering, or they don't (ugh it makes me queezy to think of).

Anyway I'll just ask my doctor next time and he'll tell me it's fine

[DeusExMachina]

Actually brain development goes well into the 20s some studies say up until 25 or 26.  I suspect as we learn more we will see it actually goes into the early 30s.  

Yes i think as with most studies it was an average.  As far as i am aware if you keep learning new ideas and concepts then your brain neurons are actively changing (can't wait to see the neurologist jump on me for my ignorance) and your brain is still developing, which in turn effects the passage of conscious time.  That is why when you attend your first educational institution and pick up concepts which change your perceptions of reality quite regularly, that one year seems to last the equivalent of five years or so for someone in say their thirties who doesn't read anything new, works, comes home and watches television Monday to Friday and engages with nothing new save the news and a television series or movie and then asks "where did last year go".

(re: two posts ago)

Well, yes, but I wasn't talking about children in particular. Most people I know with ADD/ADHD are in their 20s.

Okay to be quite honest, I was talking about me. They upped my dosage a little while ago (which actually works pretty well), and my doc indeed checks my blood pressure when I visit him, but since I'm taking this stuff daily, while not in abusive (I think) amounts of course, but the new dosage is about what I guess someone would take before going to a rave or something. So either both me and the raver will have higher risk of aortarial splattering, or they don't (ugh it makes me queezy to think of).

Anyway I'll just ask my doctor next time and he'll tell me it's fine

I am sure that the doctor is as passive about the side effects as everyone else who reads through the included information which gives you a great big list of possible harmful effects. Doctors tend to prescribe things that they have not read the medical journal reviews of and tend to just follow suite with what other doctors are doing.  So long as your don't have an obviously visible bad reaction they will just tell you it is safe and fine.

In all fairness it probably is but with prescription drugs being arguably the second or third largest cause for death in the first world i try to stay clear, or at least read what the medical reviews say about the drug in question and studies done on them which you can get access to quite easily depending on where you live.  Generally the FDA and the WHO are "good"  http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/PostmarketDrugSafetyInformationforPatientsandProviders/UCM111085 Google is your friend.

What i did to use my ADHD was to cut out television and the News which i think helped a lot and i recently quit computer games then actively use my energies to replace the space with activities of my own doing.

[AFK]

(re: two posts ago)

Well, yes, but I wasn't talking about children in particular. Most people I know with ADD/ADHD are in their 20s.

Okay to be quite honest, I was talking about me. They upped my dosage a little while ago (which actually works pretty well), and my doc indeed checks my blood pressure when I visit him, but since I'm taking this stuff daily, while not in abusive (I think) amounts of course, but the new dosage is about what I guess someone would take before going to a rave or something. So either both me and the raver will have higher risk of aortarial splattering, or they don't (ugh it makes me queezy to think of).

Anyway I'll just ask my doctor next time and he'll tell me it's fine

Yeah but you are doing this under the close consult of a doctor.  I think the scenarios that concern us in the field are the docs who prescribe and then really don't do much to check in with the patients.  Assuming you are with a doctor you are comfortable and who is really invested in making sure you are healthy, I don't think you have anything to worry about. 

[East Coast Hustle]

We'll have to agree to disagree (basically, I don't believe in the concept of spirituality), but it is refreshing to see someone who's stance on the subject actually seems well though-out and researched as opposed to the typical "no, man, you just don't understand the MAGIC of it!" that I usually hear. So thanks for at the very least forcing me to think through and reaffirm my own point of view on the issue at hand.

This was basically the point I was discussing with Lysergic.  An atheist with strong convictions isn't going to have a spiritual experience, even if his brain chemistry is identical to someone who believes in spirit having a spiritual experience.  If you could change that part of the chemistry that constitutes his disbelief he might, but you'd also be destroying his Atheism (not because the experience is "actually" spiritual but because you chemically changed his beliefs)

Though I know two atheists that saw aliens when they were tripping. Which of course ties in the the Cosmic Trigger argument that the brain sticks whatever available metaphor it can over the thing it doesn't understand.

"Hey, its something weird... must be God!"
"Hey, its something weird... must be Aliens!"

I guess I'm unusual, in that my brain tends to go with "Hey, it's something weird, must be...something weird that I don't understand yet!"

[DeusExMachina]

We'll have to agree to disagree (basically, I don't believe in the concept of spirituality), but it is refreshing to see someone who's stance on the subject actually seems well though-out and researched as opposed to the typical "no, man, you just don't understand the MAGIC of it!" that I usually hear. So thanks for at the very least forcing me to think through and reaffirm my own point of view on the issue at hand.

This was basically the point I was discussing with Lysergic.  An atheist with strong convictions isn't going to have a spiritual experience, even if his brain chemistry is identical to someone who believes in spirit having a spiritual experience.  If you could change that part of the chemistry that constitutes his disbelief he might, but you'd also be destroying his Atheism (not because the experience is "actually" spiritual but because you chemically changed his beliefs)

Though I know two atheists that saw aliens when they were tripping. Which of course ties in the the Cosmic Trigger argument that the brain sticks whatever available metaphor it can over the thing it doesn't understand.

"Hey, its something weird... must be God!"
"Hey, its something weird... must be Aliens!"

I guess I'm unusual, in that my brain tends to go with "Hey, it's something weird, must be...something weird that I don't understand yet!"

I think that is the best way to be that is how i am also. I think people try too hard to understand the metaphysical and place it into a convenient context to understand it rather than just keeping an open mind and understanding the effect of the experience and knowing they can't understand the actual experience.

[East Coast Hustle]

I have tried quite a few different drugs, 2CB, DMT, English, Mexican and Hawaiian mushrooms, Cactus.  Strangely the one which gave me the closest i could explain as an OBE was when i had some Indian Ketamine, where half way through my journey i thought "I better just go back to my body to make sure i am still breathing" which is the furthest out there i have been.
You can buy Ketamine from any pharmacist in India and even mail it back to yourself, very cheap too.
I won't bore you with my experience. I generally look at psychedelic/psychotropic (however you want to label it) drugs as a shortcut to deep meditation.  I used to mediate a lot and have  had some fun experiences, but that was after quite a lot of training. Since i haven't had the time to train or i can't be bothered, drugs are handy especially with practice and taking them with a purpose in mind
   

I tried 2CB once.

Only time I ever actually forgot my own name.

[BabylonHoruv]

(re: two posts ago)

Well, yes, but I wasn't talking about children in particular. Most people I know with ADD/ADHD are in their 20s.

Okay to be quite honest, I was talking about me. They upped my dosage a little while ago (which actually works pretty well), and my doc indeed checks my blood pressure when I visit him, but since I'm taking this stuff daily, while not in abusive (I think) amounts of course, but the new dosage is about what I guess someone would take before going to a rave or something. So either both me and the raver will have higher risk of aortarial splattering, or they don't (ugh it makes me queezy to think of).

Anyway I'll just ask my doctor next time and he'll tell me it's fine

I'd say it's both you and the raver.  There are some important differences though.  For one, because you are using a legal source rather than street drugs you know exactly what your dose is.  For another you are being monitored by a doctor, so if there is a problem it will get noticed and treated before it becomes too serious.

[BadBeast]

  Strangely the one which gave me the closest i could explain as an OBE was when i had some Indian Ketamine, where half way through my journey i thought "I better just go back to my body to make sure i am still breathing" which is the furthest out there i have been.
You can buy Ketamine from any pharmacist in India and even mail it back to yourself, very cheap too.
 

Yeah, I've had a fair bit of that Indian Ketamine, It's very different to Ketalar, or even British Vetinary Ketamine. Nice and pure too. I think it returned 1 gram per ml. It's very out of body. I ended up splitting the whole space time thing, and followed a half hour earlier version of myself around for a while. It got boring, because I knew what I was going to do next, and I didn't want to start following myself, following myself around, because, y'know, that could have got confusing.
I thought it would be like tripping at first, and while it is technically hallucinogenic, it's certainly not like tripping. Disassociative anaesthesia. Very interesting places it takes you to. But don't make the mistake of taking it orally. The impaired motor function effect kicks in before the head thing does, and it's quite unpleasant. I found the best way to do it was to have a quite small hit, every 20 mins or so. It makes you psychic too. If there's 3 or 4 of you doing it, you end up running in and out of each other's heads, and forgetting who you are. The most important thing, ( & I can't overstress this enough) is to try and stay within 6 or 7 feet of a sofa, at all times. 
Welcome to marshmallow world. Sticky toffee land. 

[Cramulus]

I am one of those contemptible human beings that enjoys these things for self-improvement reasons. Dramatic perceptual shifts spike my creativity. These toys have done wonders for me, helping me leverage myself into the relatively cool person I am today. In the right settings, I have had what some might call a "spiritual experience". I don't have a lot of language to describe it, but ego death is pointing in the right direction. This is what I aim for. One of these experiences once or twice a year helps keep me grounded and self aware. And I think I've turned out okay and not become some kind of hippie wankstain.

[BadBeast]

Hippy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wSr7h_pjxs

Or if you prefer, with sheeps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8kOMonAaDg&feature=related

[DeusExMachina]

I am one of those contemptible human beings that enjoys these things for self-improvement reasons. Dramatic perceptual shifts spike my creativity. These toys have done wonders for me, helping me leverage myself into the relatively cool person I am today. In the right settings, I have had what some might call a "spiritual experience". I don't have a lot of language to describe it, but ego death is pointing in the right direction. This is what I aim for. One of these experiences once or twice a year helps keep me grounded and self aware. And I think I've turned out okay and not become some kind of hippie wankstain.

Well said.  I try to do the same

  Strangely the one which gave me the closest i could explain as an OBE was when i had some Indian Ketamine, where half way through my journey i thought "I better just go back to my body to make sure i am still breathing" which is the furthest out there i have been.
You can buy Ketamine from any pharmacist in India and even mail it back to yourself, very cheap too.
 

Yeah, I've had a fair bit of that Indian Ketamine, It's very different to Ketalar, or even British Vetinary Ketamine. Nice and pure too. I think it returned 1 gram per ml. It's very out of body. I ended up splitting the whole space time thing, and followed a half hour earlier version of myself around for a while. It got boring, because I knew what I was going to do next, and I didn't want to start following myself, following myself around, because, y'know, that could have got confusing.
I thought it would be like tripping at first, and while it is technically hallucinogenic, it's certainly not like tripping. Disassociative anaesthesia. Very interesting places it takes you to. But don't make the mistake of taking it orally. The impaired motor function effect kicks in before the head thing does, and it's quite unpleasant. I found the best way to do it was to have a quite small hit, every 20 mins or so. It makes you psychic too. If there's 3 or 4 of you doing it, you end up running in and out of each other's heads, and forgetting who you are. The most important thing, ( & I can't overstress this enough) is to try and stay within 6 or 7 feet of a sofa, at all times. 
Welcome to marshmallow world. Sticky toffee land. 

Yeah i found that trying to imagine myself going higher and higher like with meditation i had a less personal centered experience and kept trying to go higher and more simplified. It was quite fun and i spoke to my friend after wards and asked if he went to the 'counsel of the gods' and he apparently did too we had slightly different things that we saw but that was a major similarity   

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I am one of those contemptible human beings that enjoys these things for self-improvement reasons. Dramatic perceptual shifts spike my creativity. These toys have done wonders for me, helping me leverage myself into the relatively cool person I am today. In the right settings, I have had what some might call a "spiritual experience". I don't have a lot of language to describe it, but ego death is pointing in the right direction. This is what I aim for. One of these experiences once or twice a year helps keep me grounded and self aware. And I think I've turned out okay and not become some kind of hippie wankstain.

I think there's a difference between people who use drugs and people that get stuck in the bliss cycle.

[BadBeast]

I am one of those contemptible human beings that enjoys these things for self-improvement reasons. Dramatic perceptual shifts spike my creativity. These toys have done wonders for me, helping me leverage myself into the relatively cool person I am today. In the right settings, I have had what some might call a "spiritual experience". I don't have a lot of language to describe it, but ego death is pointing in the right direction. This is what I aim for. One of these experiences once or twice a year helps keep me grounded and self aware. And I think I've turned out okay and not become some kind of hippie wankstain.

I think there's a difference between people who use drugs and people that get stuck in the bliss cycle.

Bliss is pretty pointless without the fear of The Fear™. It just teaches people to be complacent. And that just isn't acceptable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwIjrvA7hJU

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I am one of those contemptible human beings that enjoys these things for self-improvement reasons. Dramatic perceptual shifts spike my creativity. These toys have done wonders for me, helping me leverage myself into the relatively cool person I am today. In the right settings, I have had what some might call a "spiritual experience". I don't have a lot of language to describe it, but ego death is pointing in the right direction. This is what I aim for. One of these experiences once or twice a year helps keep me grounded and self aware. And I think I've turned out okay and not become some kind of hippie wankstain.

I think there's a difference between people who use drugs and people that get stuck in the bliss cycle.

Bliss is pretty pointless without the fear of The Fear™. It just teaches people to be complacent. And that just isn't acceptable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwIjrvA7hJU

Bliss can be amazing, but you have to come out of it long enough to make use of the experience. People that are permanently tripping/high etc seem stuck in the experience without gaining anything from it... and thus babble on about Life, The Universe etc in ways that they might feel, but can't usefully express... cause they're riding that bliss rather than hanging out in reality.

I also agree on The Fear. 

[Doktor Howl]

Or you could just try looking at things without a filter once in a while.

Apparently easier for you than for me.  I don't know that I have ever managed that.

Also, for me, psychedelics aren't so much about removing the filter as swapping it with a different one.

Precisely.

I'm a fan of cactus, but I don't do it to look at the world in a different way, I do it because it makes me into even more of a horrible shit than I am normally, and I like that once in a while.

But looking at the world without filters takes practice and hard work.  Sort of like meditation and all that other hippy shit, only it's useful (and funny), in a horrible way.

You can look at the world without filters? Could you go into some detail there?

Nobody can look at the world without any filters at all...After all, we all have biases.  However, if you constantly question those biases, try to look at things with a fresh set of eyes, you can minimize over time the "built in" filters you use. 

Mind altering drugs don't do that.  They add filters.  Huge ones.