Freedom isn't Free

[Doktor Howl]

so, how do you handle the guilt then?
do you anguish over it?
accept it like water off a duck's back?
embrace it?

(i know it's not the latter...)

Guilt?

[The Johnny]

Im trying to have a conversation, and you are mostly being a condescending dick.

Didn't seem to stop you, when you stated that I had no integrity...And as far as I've seen, that statement still stands.

We've had a good trade of personal insults in several occasions, and i cant say it was my fault each time.

[Doktor Howl]

Im trying to have a conversation, and you are mostly being a condescending dick.

Didn't seem to stop you, when you stated that I had no integrity...And as far as I've seen, that statement still stands.

We've had a good trade of personal insults in several occasions, and i cant say it was my fault each time.

Have we?  I seem to remember you starting out with a direct attack on my integrity.

You've stood by that attack ever since.

So you have precisely zero sympathy when someone like Charley schools you in something that pretty much everyone should know.

[Elder Iptuous]

so, how do you handle the guilt then?
do you anguish over it?
accept it like water off a duck's back?
embrace it?

(i know it's not the latter...)

Guilt?

well... if we're complicit in the sins of our govt.... ?

[Doktor Howl]

so, how do you handle the guilt then?
do you anguish over it?
accept it like water off a duck's back?
embrace it?

(i know it's not the latter...)

Guilt?

well... if we're complicit in the sins of our govt.... ?

I fail to see how the two connect.

But I AM a misanthrope, particularly during the last 48 hours or so.

[The Johnny]

Have we?  I seem to remember you starting out with a direct attack on my integrity.

You've stood by that attack ever since.

So you have precisely zero sympathy when someone like Charley schools you in something that pretty much everyone should know.

I dont recall in which situation that attack happened, you see, theres been several blowouts in which ive been piled on and those involved (including myself) acted like monkeys.

As for Charley, hes not "schooling me", i understand he might know more about history than me, but making condescending ambiguos remarks doesnt help anything but to boost his own ego, if im pointed out in which way im in the wrong i can concede a point. You pointed out the rape of Nanking and i respectively read about it and reevaluated my position.

And not everyone knows deeply about history, and seeing that Charley isnt pointing out where my argument was flawed, i still think that hes missing the point. According to wikipedia, there were 57 civilians killed and 37 wounded, which seems as disregarding a few collateral damage kills of civilians in lieu of destroying an entire fleet, which is not the same thing as actively or preemptively killing civilians.

[Elder Iptuous]

so, how do you handle the guilt then?
do you anguish over it?
accept it like water off a duck's back?
embrace it?

(i know it's not the latter...)

Guilt?

well... if we're complicit in the sins of our govt.... ?

I fail to see how the two connect.

But I AM a misanthrope, particularly during the last 48 hours or so.

hmm...  doesn't complicity in some misdeed confer some guilt?   
i'm missing something i think...

[Doktor Howl]

so, how do you handle the guilt then?
do you anguish over it?
accept it like water off a duck's back?
embrace it?

(i know it's not the latter...)

Guilt?

well... if we're complicit in the sins of our govt.... ?

I fail to see how the two connect.

But I AM a misanthrope, particularly during the last 48 hours or so.

hmm...  doesn't complicity in some misdeed confer some guilt?   
i'm missing something i think...

For the last two days, I've wanted a meteor the size of Greenland to hit the Earth.

That should explain a thing or two.

Ask me again when I feel less homicidal.

[Cain]

Japanese civilians had no say in the Rape of Nanking.  Just like most Americans in the World Trade Centre having no say in American foreign policy in the Middle East.  

One of the neat things about tolerating dictators and wannabe-dictators is that your complacency makes you complicit in their acts.

I don't believe in that logic.  People who spoke out against the military dictatorship in Japan were gunned down in the streets, their families often vanished along with them.  What were they meant to do?  And besides, it's not like nuclear weapons only kill Japanese citizens who aren't actively resisting their government, the few who were still alive at that point.

In fact, it is exactly that kind of logic which led to Bin Laden declaring that every American in the world is a legitimate target for Muslim jihadis.  His exact point was that, as a democracy, American citizens were responsible for their government's policies in the Middle East, policies which have, directly and indirectly, led to a pile of corpses far bigger than the Rape of Nanking.  And as such, they were legitimate targets, every last one of them.

In short, collective punishment is the logic of the terrorist.  Or do you think no innocent civilians, children, were killed when the nuclear bombs were dropped?

[Doktor Howl]

I dont recall in which situation that attack happened,

My daughter's thread.  You screamed something about me abusing admin powers by sticking up for a new ranter, "just because she was my daughter".

Oddly enough, I hadn't touched the admin button.

You've never retracted that.  It's in fact the reason I hate you.  I mean, other than for being a human, of course.

[Doktor Howl]

In short, collective punishment is the logic of the terrorist.  Or do you think no innocent civilians, children, were killed when the nuclear bombs were dropped?

So is it your opinion that no action should be taken if there are civilians in the area?  After all, it's not like the nukes were the worst things we did.

[Cain]

In short, collective punishment is the logic of the terrorist.  Or do you think no innocent civilians, children, were killed when the nuclear bombs were dropped?

So is it your opinion that no action should be taken if there are civilians in the area?  After all, it's not like the nukes were the worst things we did.

No it is not.  However there are weapons which are obviously going to kill civilians in large numbers and nuclear weapons are one of those.  They are indisriminate, cause far more damage than any other individual bomb (small yields allowing for scaling an attack according to military worth versus potential collateral damage) and their secondary effects last after the end of any war.

And I believe your argument was that the Japanese people deserved it because they were insufficiently opposing their government.  By that logic, you and I should be killed by Iraqis for not stopping the Iraq War.  In fact, by that argument, pretty much everyone in the world bar the Swiss and New Zealand could be legitimately targeted.

[Elder Iptuous]

And I believe your argument was that the Japanese people deserved it because they were insufficiently opposing their government.  By that logic, you and I should be killed by Iraqis for not stopping the Iraq War.  In fact, by that argument, pretty much everyone in the world ...could be legitimately targeted.

but, this is true....

[Doktor Howl]

Cain, I see no flaw in your argument.

[Adios]

Have we?  I seem to remember you starting out with a direct attack on my integrity.

You've stood by that attack ever since.

So you have precisely zero sympathy when someone like Charley schools you in something that pretty much everyone should know.

I dont recall in which situation that attack happened, you see, theres been several blowouts in which ive been piled on and those involved (including myself) acted like monkeys.

As for Charley, hes not "schooling me", i understand he might know more about history than me, but making condescending ambiguos remarks doesnt help anything but to boost his own ego, if im pointed out in which way im in the wrong i can concede a point. You pointed out the rape of Nanking and i respectively read about it and reevaluated my position.

And not everyone knows deeply about history, and seeing that Charley isnt pointing out where my argument was flawed, i still think that hes missing the point. According to wikipedia, there were 57 civilians killed and 37 wounded, which seems as disregarding a few collateral damage kills of civilians in lieu of destroying an entire fleet, which is not the same thing as actively or preemptively killing civilians.

Once again, I did not make condescending remarks.

Did your loss of civilian life search include the Islands the Japanese invaded? I mean, the Japanese were certainly the models of civility. And I will ask again, have you researched enough to ask how many lives were ultimately saved?

This is not a new subject and not recent history. It is something everybody should be at least familiar with.

I am not a history teacher. I simply don't have time in my life to do the research and provide all the links that you should be capable of finding on your own.

It is good to know however, that killing only 57 civilians (which I doubt is accurate) is acceptable.