Liberaltarianism

[Doktor Howl]

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/internal?st=print&id=104052668&path=/news/local

Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground
Originally printed at http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html

By Reporter - Jason Hibbs
By Photojournalist - Mark Owen
September 30, 2010
OBION COUNTY, Tenn. - Imagine your home catches fire but the local fire department won't respond, then watches it burn. That's exactly what happened to a local family tonight.

A local neighborhood is furious after firefighters watched as an Obion County, Tennessee, home burned to the ground.

The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late.  They wouldn't do anything to stop his house from burning.

Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton.  But the Cranicks did not pay.

The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck.

Hooray for the Free Market!

LET'S HEAR IT FOR LIBERTARIANISM/ARARCHISM/MINARCHISM!

[Phox]

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/internal?st=print&id=104052668&path=/news/local

Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground
Originally printed at http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html

By Reporter - Jason Hibbs
By Photojournalist - Mark Owen
September 30, 2010
OBION COUNTY, Tenn. - Imagine your home catches fire but the local fire department won't respond, then watches it burn. That's exactly what happened to a local family tonight.

A local neighborhood is furious after firefighters watched as an Obion County, Tennessee, home burned to the ground.

The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late.  They wouldn't do anything to stop his house from burning.

Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton.  But the Cranicks did not pay.

The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck.

Hooray for the Free Market!

LET'S HEAR IT FOR LIBERTARIANISM/ARARCHISM/MINARCHISM!

WOO!

[Disco Pickle]

this incident had absolutely nothing to do with libertarianism.

FTR: they should have put out the fire and then worked out some way for him to pay the fee.  In all actuality, the government shouldn't be charging "fees" for this sort of thing the way a private business would.  It should be a tax collected automatically.  If it had been run by a private business, they would have put out the fire and charged him for it.  This was a failure of the government of the town, as it was a government run fire department.  Government should not be run like a business.

using this as some sort of fuel for fire against libertarianism shows lack of understanding.

[Doktor Howl]

this incident had absolutely nothing to do with libertarianism.

FTR: they should have put out the fire and then worked out some way for him to pay the fee.  In all actuality, the government shouldn't be charging "fees" for this sort of thing the way a private business would.  It should be a tax collected automatically.  If it had been run by a private business, they would have put out the fire and charged him for it.  This was a failure of the government of the town, as it was a government run fire department.  Government should not be run like a business.

using this as some sort of fuel for fire against libertarianism shows lack of understanding.

User fees are a staple of the LP.

[Elder Iptuous]

i wouldn't say that the gov't was being run like a business here.
if it were, it would have taken advantage of the fact that it had the fellow by the short hairs, and arrived in their trucks with a handheld card swiper demanding that he pay some outrageous late fee on his annual cost if he wanted service...
they were simply acting like dicks, from this little article here...

i'm curious.... did the family know that they were required to pay this fee if they wanted protection from the fire department?  (i would assume they did)
how does this sort of policy affect fire insurance payout?
did this guy do something to piss off the local officials?  i would think that they would have sympathy and/or business greed in this situation, rather than be belligerent, unless they just had it out for the guy...

[Disco Pickle]

this incident had absolutely nothing to do with libertarianism.

FTR: they should have put out the fire and then worked out some way for him to pay the fee.  In all actuality, the government shouldn't be charging "fees" for this sort of thing the way a private business would.  It should be a tax collected automatically.  If it had been run by a private business, they would have put out the fire and charged him for it.  This was a failure of the government of the town, as it was a government run fire department.  Government should not be run like a business.

using this as some sort of fuel for fire against libertarianism shows lack of understanding.

User fees are a staple of the LP.

for private companies, not government services.

if there had been a private fire company available, they would have put it out like he asked and charged him for it.  

of course, no one in his right mind would start a private fire protection company in an unincorporated neighborhood adjacent to an existing town since the town could forcibly annex the neighborhood at any time, and then take over all such services by fiat, and because the county fire company might decide to waive its $75 "fee" at any time, and instead subsist on its tax revenues, something no private competitor could do, and thus run the private company out of business overnight.

[Doktor Howl]

User fees are a staple of the LP.

for private companies, not government services.

How very odd.  Has anyone told the LP?

[Doktor Howl]

this incident had absolutely nothing to do with libertarianism.

FTR: they should have put out the fire and then worked out some way for him to pay the fee.  In all actuality, the government shouldn't be charging "fees" for this sort of thing the way a private business would.  It should be a tax collected automatically.  If it had been run by a private business, they would have put out the fire and charged him for it.  This was a failure of the government of the town, as it was a government run fire department.  Government should not be run like a business.

using this as some sort of fuel for fire against libertarianism shows lack of understanding.

User fees are a staple of the LP.

for private companies, not government services.

if there had been a private fire company available, they would have put it out like he asked and charged him for it.  

of course, no one in his right mind would start a private fire protection company in an unincorporated neighborhood adjacent to an existing town since the town could forcibly annex the neighborhood at any time, and then take over all such services by fiat, and because the county fire company might decide to waive its $75 "fee" at any time, and instead subsist on its tax revenues, something no private competitor could do, and thus run the private company out of business overnight.

Well, this is typical American half-assery.  Semi-private means "you get fucked by both".

Also, there are some functions best run entirely public.  Corporations aren't necessarily the best answer for every problem, no matter what the LPers and/or Teabaggers claim.

[Disco Pickle]

i wouldn't say that the gov't was being run like a business here.
if it were, it would have taken advantage of the fact that it had the fellow by the short hairs, and arrived in their trucks with a handheld card swiper demanding that he pay some outrageous late fee on his annual cost if he wanted service...
they were simply acting like dicks, from this little article here...

i'm curious.... did the family know that they were required to pay this fee if they wanted protection from the fire department?  (i would assume they did)
how does this sort of policy affect fire insurance payout?
did this guy do something to piss off the local officials?  i would think that they would have sympathy and/or business greed in this situation, rather than be belligerent, unless they just had it out for the guy...

the government charging a fee for service rather than taxing it as they're "allowed" to do makes it resemble a business, even though it isn't.

Incidentally, If he'd "forgotten" to pay his property taxes and the fire department was paid out of them, this wouldn't have happened, because they would have put out the fire and taken both house and property away from him for "back taxes".

He'd still be out of the house.

Luckily he still has the property.

[Disco Pickle]

this incident had absolutely nothing to do with libertarianism.

FTR: they should have put out the fire and then worked out some way for him to pay the fee.  In all actuality, the government shouldn't be charging "fees" for this sort of thing the way a private business would.  It should be a tax collected automatically.  If it had been run by a private business, they would have put out the fire and charged him for it.  This was a failure of the government of the town, as it was a government run fire department.  Government should not be run like a business.

using this as some sort of fuel for fire against libertarianism shows lack of understanding.

User fees are a staple of the LP.

for private companies, not government services.

if there had been a private fire company available, they would have put it out like he asked and charged him for it.  

of course, no one in his right mind would start a private fire protection company in an unincorporated neighborhood adjacent to an existing town since the town could forcibly annex the neighborhood at any time, and then take over all such services by fiat, and because the county fire company might decide to waive its $75 "fee" at any time, and instead subsist on its tax revenues, something no private competitor could do, and thus run the private company out of business overnight.

Well, this is typical American half-assery.  Semi-private means "you get fucked by both".

Also, there are some functions best run entirely public.  Corporations aren't necessarily the best answer for every problem, no matter what the LPers and/or Teabaggers claim.

what the hell are you talking about Howl?  I'm saying this should NOT be a pay for service OPTION.  It should be taxed the same way every other fucking place does it.

this issue being used as a condemnation of libertarianism is absurd as there was NO market option even available and the fire dept was government run. 

This was a problem of failed government not properly extending services that should be in place for everyone.

you're confusing me with the LP types who want to abolish municipal fire departments.  I think that's just fucking silly.  But I do think that if a group of homeowners want to band together and pay a private company to provide fire protection, that should be their option and they should be given the tax break for it.

[Doktor Howl]

what the hell are you talking about Howl?  I'm saying this should NOT be a pay for service OPTION.  It should be taxed the same way every other fucking place does it.

So, you're not actually a member of the Libertarian Party, right?

this issue being used as a condemnation of libertarianism is absurd as there was NO market option even available and the fire dept was government run. 

This was a problem of failed government not properly extending services that should be in place for everyone.

you're confusing me with the LP types who want to abolish municipal fire departments.  I think that's just fucking silly.  But I do think that if a group of homeowners want to band together and pay a private company to provide fire protection, that should be their option and they should be given the tax break for it.

Which, of course, shorts the other communities around them.  So the rich get top-notch fire protection, and the poor get whatever they can scrape together, given less funds available in a given region.

[Disco Pickle]

what the hell are you talking about Howl?  I'm saying this should NOT be a pay for service OPTION.  It should be taxed the same way every other fucking place does it.

So, you're not actually a member of the Libertarian Party, right?

Had to hold my nose and register Republican actually.  Closed primary state.  LP has little to no influence as a party.

I like the Republican Party of Florida about as much as I like Democrats, but there's some local groups here doing a good job of getting elected to local positions and influencing decisions within the party, like the audit that just uncovered a lot of *gasp* fraud and corruption by major players.  I truly have no hopes of anything really changing.

Which, of course, shorts the other communities around them.  So the rich get top-notch fire protection, and the poor get whatever they can scrape together, given less funds available in a given region.

Realistically, the government would find a way to get their money one way or another.  And you'd probably only see it being used by ultra rich who want a much faster response time or privacy should a fire break out.

There'd be as much a short to the other communities as there are from the rich employing private security instead of having to rely on the police.

[Doktor Howl]

Had to hold my nose and register Republican actually.  Closed primary state.  LP has little to no influence as a party.

I used to register republican, so I could volunteer to "help" their campaigns.

But enjoy your splintering, nutjobbery-ridden party.  I can see the attraction.  Christine O'Donnel and the others are fucking hilarious.

Realistically, the government would find a way to get their money one way or another.  And you'd probably only see it being used by ultra rich who want a much faster response time or privacy should a fire break out.

There'd be as much a short to the other communities as there are from the rich employing private security instead of having to rely on the police.

So your argument is that firefighters in the private sector take too long?

And link to rich neighborhoods having private security that can actually make arrests?

[Disco Pickle]

Had to hold my nose and register Republican actually.  Closed primary state.  LP has little to no influence as a party.

I used to register republican, so I could volunteer to "help" their campaigns.

But enjoy your splintering, nutjobbery-ridden party.  I can see the attraction.  Christine O'Donnel and the others are fucking hilarious.

Realistically, the government would find a way to get their money one way or another.  And you'd probably only see it being used by ultra rich who want a much faster response time or privacy should a fire break out.

There'd be as much a short to the other communities as there are from the rich employing private security instead of having to rely on the police.

So your argument is that firefighters in the private sector take too long?

And link to rich neighborhoods having private security that can actually make arrests?

I'm more and more leaning toward just not voting, or at least voting for whoever will make me laugh the most.

and democrats elect nutjobs like O'Donnel who are just funny in a different way.

I think you meant public sector, but no that's not what I meant, I meant they would have one that served their community exclusively, and was closer than a public department.  The cost of actually maintaining this service 24/7 would probably be astronomical though.

Private security is used more as a deterent.  People with that kind of money usually get targeted for robbery.  Or with Loliwood types, stalkers.  

But a Class A license gives a security person police powers on the property they are protecting.

http://www.kcmo.org/police/Permits/PrivateSecurityOfficers/index.htm

[EDIT] That's Missouri, laws may and probably do vary by state.

[Doktor Howl]

I think you meant public sector, but no that's not what I meant, I meant they would have one that served their community exclusively, and was closer than a public department.  The cost of actually maintaining this service 24/7 would probably be astronomical though.

Private security is used more as a deterent.  People with that kind of money usually get targeted for robbery.  Or with Loliwood types, stalkers. 

But a Class A license gives a security person police powers on the property they are protecting.

http://www.kcmo.org/police/Permits/PrivateSecurityOfficers/index.htm

Um, most robberies are committed against the poor.  And if we allowed the foothills district in Tucson to "opt out" of fire protection, then the hive district would be totally fucked.  If they want their own fire department, let them have it...but they should still be paying their taxes, just as people who send their kids to private schools need to pay their property taxes.

But I hope your party wins this November, because America deserves more republicanism, good and hard.