Skeptic groups trying to marginalize atheists

[Doktor Howl]

Atheists aren't actually skeptics, anyway.  They have taken something on faith (the non-existence of a God), and defend it in the exact same manner that religious nutbags do.

what type of evidence do you think should  be sufficient for proof of god that they would deny on faith?

You can't prove or disprove God's existence using anything remotely like the scientific method.  That was my whole point.

1.  You can't prove a negative.

2.  You can't take a God detector to a no-God zone to zero it out (ie, there is no control area).

Since they aren't using science to "disprove" (or prove) God's existence, they are expressing belief and/or opinion.

The only real position for an actual skeptic is that of an agnostic ("I have observed the following data, and there is no indication either way that a God does or does not exist".).  Unless God shows up, in which case the argument is pretty much settled...However, he's been quite the absentee landlord, and I don't expect that to happen any time soon.

The problem with this thinking is that it forgets that atheism is the default position.  Nobody is born a theist, babies know no god.

And the whole "agnostic" thing is just a dodge, when somebody asks you if you believe in god and you say you are agnostic, you have dodged their question.  They didn't ask if you believed it was possible to know if there was a god, they asked you what you truly believe in your heart and your gut.  Which would mean that agnostics are either atheistic agnostics or theistic agnostics.

I disagree entirely.  In my gut, I have no idea if there's a God or not.

[Doktor Howl]

The problem with this thinking is that it forgets that atheism is the default position. 

There is no default position.  You are dealing with the beliefs of monkeys, and a universe that has not chosen to settle the question, so to speak.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Further thought:

We could discuss specific Gods "Do you believe in the Baptist God?" "Do you believe in the Catholic God?" "Do you believe in the Greek Gods?" etc.

And to each of those I can answer "No", not because I don't believe that some entity might exist... but because I can examine the belief system involved and reject that specific belief system.

A theist rejects all Gods except the God they believe in.

An atheist rejects all Gods.

I reject belief systems that make no sense, but I hold no position on the concept of deity.

[The Android]

Food for thought.

[Doktor Howl]

I suspect the presence of a deity, because a number of years ago, I got my tongue stuck in an Epson tractor feed printer.

That doesn't happen in a random universe.  It requires a malign intelligence at work.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Food for thought.

Excellent.

As the Non-Prophet said "Tis an ill wind that blows no minds".

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think that I'm pretty in line with Rat here. If I were to consider myself anything, it would be a polytheist. The problem is, what is a god? If it's an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and all loving deity, well, that's a hard sell since some of these things contradict. But that dexcribes the Christian god. What about Zeus? He's not omnipotent, he was chained up by his wife. He's not omnipresent or those chains would be meaningless. He's not omniscient because he didn't see those chains coming. He's not all loving because he knocks you up and leaves you and your baby at Hera's whim. But he is nevertheless defined as a god.

Also, atheism is not a default position. Lack of indoctrination into a faith means nothing. A child will come up with supernatural explanations for things on their own. I used to conceive of a giant "Grandfather Bee" to explain the loud buzzing of insects in the summer. It made sense to me. I conceived of this Grandfather Bee to be an immortal bee god that worked for bees whilst I had my anthropomorphic "God" figure out of Catholicism.

[Cainad (dec.)]

The problem with this thinking is that it forgets that atheism is the default position.  Nobody is born a theist, babies know no god.

And the whole "agnostic" thing is just a dodge, when somebody asks you if you believe in god and you say you are agnostic, you have dodged their question.  They didn't ask if you believed it was possible to know if there was a god, they asked you what you truly believe in your heart and your gut.  Which would mean that agnostics are either atheistic agnostics or theistic agnostics.

Not really. By declaring myself agnostic, I'm taking a third option because the dichotomy posed by your question did not reflect the reality of my situation.

Actually, scratch that. It is a dodge of the question, I'm just pointing out that there's not necessarily anything wrong with dodging a question like that, if the only choices I'm being given are inadequate.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

The problem with this thinking is that it forgets that atheism is the default position.  Nobody is born a theist, babies know no god.

And the whole "agnostic" thing is just a dodge, when somebody asks you if you believe in god and you say you are agnostic, you have dodged their question.  They didn't ask if you believed it was possible to know if there was a god, they asked you what you truly believe in your heart and your gut.  Which would mean that agnostics are either atheistic agnostics or theistic agnostics.

Not really. By declaring myself agnostic, I'm taking a third option because the dichotomy posed by your question did not reflect the reality of my situation.

Actually, scratch that. It is a dodge of the question, I'm just pointing out that there's not necessarily anything wrong with dodging a question like that, if the only choices I'm being given are inadequate.

That makes you a skeptic. You don't have enough data to work with.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The problem with this thinking is that it forgets that atheism is the default position.  Nobody is born a theist, babies know no god.

And the whole "agnostic" thing is just a dodge, when somebody asks you if you believe in god and you say you are agnostic, you have dodged their question.  They didn't ask if you believed it was possible to know if there was a god, they asked you what you truly believe in your heart and your gut.  Which would mean that agnostics are either atheistic agnostics or theistic agnostics.

Not really. By declaring myself agnostic, I'm taking a third option because the dichotomy posed by your question did not reflect the reality of my situation.

Actually, scratch that. It is a dodge of the question, I'm just pointing out that there's not necessarily anything wrong with dodging a question like that, if the only choices I'm being given are inadequate.

That makes you a skeptic. You don't have enough data to work with.

You would think that as more people understood science and the scientific method... saying "I don't know" would become easier.

Ah monkeys

[Doktor Howl]

You would think that as more people understood science and the scientific method...

Where is your world?  I want to live in it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

The problem with this thinking is that it forgets that atheism is the default position.  Nobody is born a theist, babies know no god.

And the whole "agnostic" thing is just a dodge, when somebody asks you if you believe in god and you say you are agnostic, you have dodged their question.  They didn't ask if you believed it was possible to know if there was a god, they asked you what you truly believe in your heart and your gut.  Which would mean that agnostics are either atheistic agnostics or theistic agnostics.

Not really. By declaring myself agnostic, I'm taking a third option because the dichotomy posed by your question did not reflect the reality of my situation.

Actually, scratch that. It is a dodge of the question, I'm just pointing out that there's not necessarily anything wrong with dodging a question like that, if the only choices I'm being given are inadequate.

That makes you a skeptic. You don't have enough data to work with.

You would think that as more people understood science and the scientific method... saying "I don't know" would become easier.

Ah monkeys

There's nothing wrong with saying "I just don't fucking know, therefore, I have no opinion on the topic. Come back with some numbers."

Hard atheism is not a religion, but it is a belief system. Like others have said, most atheists just go, "I don't expect the existence of deity" and leave it at that.

[Cain]

"I don't anticipate any gods" is not the same as "I don't believe in gods".

The former is a valid believe, ie an anticipation of reality.

The latter is a belief in belief, ie an anticipation it is RIGHTEOUS to not anticipate gods.

The former is stated once and is over with.

The latter is a form of cheering and is therefore stated over and over, ad nauseum.

The latter will profess to be an atheist.

The former won't waste the time.

And lo, there was a motorcycle, and it's parts thereof were correct.

*(possibly) Angelic Choir*

An entirely unanticipated Angelic Choir.

[eighteen buddha strike]

Atheists aren't actually skeptics, anyway.  They have taken something on faith (the non-existence of a God), and defend it in the exact same manner that religious nutbags do.

what type of evidence do you think should  be sufficient for proof of god that they would deny on faith?

You can't prove or disprove God's existence using anything remotely like the scientific method.  That was my whole point.

1.  You can't prove a negative.

2.  You can't take a God detector to a no-God zone to zero it out (ie, there is no control area).

Since they aren't using science to "disprove" (or prove) God's existence, they are expressing belief and/or opinion.

The only real position for an actual skeptic is that of an agnostic ("I have observed the following data, and there is no indication either way that a God does or does not exist".).  Unless God shows up, in which case the argument is pretty much settled...However, he's been quite the absentee landlord, and I don't expect that to happen any time soon.

The problem with this thinking is that it forgets that atheism is the default position.  Nobody is born a theist, babies know no god.

And the whole "agnostic" thing is just a dodge, when somebody asks you if you believe in god and you say you are agnostic, you have dodged their question.  They didn't ask if you believed it was possible to know if there was a god, they asked you what you truly believe in your heart and your gut.  Which would mean that agnostics are either atheistic agnostics or theistic agnostics.

Humans are not born skeptical, they must learn HOW to be skeptical. If you want to stick with a default position of a baby on the topic, that's cool... but its not skepticism.

Agnosticism is not a dodge, its the position that a skeptic would hold on any topic until there was evidence. Currently there is no evidence for or against deity, therefore agnosticism is a rational position for a skeptic.

Did you actually bother reading what I wrote?  Because your response seems to indicate you didn't.

I did read what you wrote. However you seem stuck in an either/or as though people believed only in two static extremes. Either you secretly believe in God or you don't.

Yet, for skeptics the point not to believe in your heart one way or the other, until there is evidence. Otherwise, its not skepticism... its just belief.

I am open to the possibility of God. I don't believe any particular system that claims a God. Until there is evidence though, the question is silly.
God may exist. God may not exist. I don't know. No secret belief necessary.

But I think you are still dodging the actual question.  Ok, let's leave what your belief is out of it, but what about what seems likely?  Does it seem more or less likely that a god exists? And we will take the "we can't know" as a given, since it is blatantly obvious to any 5 year old.  And leave "skepticism" out of it, since I never brought it up to begin with.

If I ask you whether you think it's likely that there is, or would be, a god, and you answer "we can't know it" after its been taken as a given isn't your answer really just a more polite version of "fuck you I don't want to talk to you"?  How do you live your life on a daily basis?  Do you live your life acting as though you believe in a god?  If not, it seems to me, and I fully admit that I may just be wrong, but it seems to me if you act as if there is no god then your belief is probably that you don't find it very likely.  In which case I would say you would fit as an agnostic atheist, someone who thinks we cannot ultimately ever know the answer, but doesn't feel its very likely.

What is god?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

...Jesus don't hurt me.... don't hurt me... no more...

Sorry had to.