Making Occult Studies more Accessible

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

That sounds fair.

Also, refusing to cut off the woo, or at least refusing to throw it away, is also a problem.

FOR EXAMPLE:  Still referring to it as "magick", when everyone knows damn well that it's not.

Point.

But who is doing that ITT?

[East Coast Hustle]

That sounds fair.

Also, refusing to cut off the woo, or at least refusing to throw it away, is also a problem.

FOR EXAMPLE:  Still referring to it as "magick", when everyone knows damn well that it's not.

Or even using the word "occult". As soon as I hear/read that, I instantly stop taking whoever said/typed it seriously for the duration of the conversation.

[Placid Dingo]

As far as the terminology goes I like to use some of the language (mainly the terms like sigils and servitors) because the magical terms have a lot of loaded meanings and associated jargon that kind of suits the subject better.

A trademark can be understood as a sigil, as can a logo, brand name or mascot. The term encompasses all those as well as the idea that they are charged (pumped full of meaning) in a way that's designed to manipulate people into making intuitive decisions that are meant to benefit someone else. I mean I could outline all that every fucking time I want to talk about that but why? If I say sigils and I know that it means and you know what it means it already has all that meaning attached to it.

It seems silly that intelligent people can read this and freak out and say holy shit this whole conversation is retarded because they're not using the same words I would use.

[East Coast Hustle]

What seems silly is that intelligent people would use words that have an explicit supernatural meaning attached to them.

[Placid Dingo]

Explain what the value in myth is and why that same value can't be extracted from the empirical world.

I would say because myth might be more helpful in triggering ideas and revelations in some people as opposed to empirical knowledge.  Indeed, if you aren't getting absorbed into the actual religion of a myth, the myth really is just a re framing of the empirical world.  Cram points out the obvious example.

Also, in the Campbell kind of zone we use myth to try to make sense of the human journey, who we are, what we do and where we are headed. It provides us allogories (sp?), value systems (for those who would like it) and ties in with elements if identity.

The golden apple is a good one. I would think there's a number of us who at sone point have had to 'throw something out there' and seen conceptual links with the apple of discord.

Also, the idea of the melding of myth with the empirical, best example I can think of being the "Evil Nazi Holocaust Narrative" vs  the historical holocaust, is a good basis for general skepticism about historical narratives.

[Placid Dingo]

What seems silly is that intelligent people would use words that have an explicit supernatural meaning attached to them.

I get that too. But you know, if you talk about seo I'm not going to force you to call it 'using cheap tricks to get Internet traffic' before I'm willing to talk to you about it. There's connotations attached to anything. If we're on the same page though, really, I can't see why we can't just agree to disagree on the terms.

[Placid Dingo]

Also, for clarity, are you saying ECH that putting yourself in life or death situations is the ideal way to find relaxation generally? Or that it's something everyone should do as part of their personal growth? Or

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm just going to throw my two cents in here, as far as word usage is concerned.

If words have specific meanings, as we are wont to say when we are ragging righteously on a newb, then we should accept that the jargon that we currently use is going to have to suffice for now. Our interpretations of the jargon may shift over time, but if it is a convenient shorthand, we shouldn't chuck it out based on the fact that there used to be superstition involved with it. To go back, the word yoga is a prime example of that. It used to be crazy swami shit, then it was a way to stretch in the hopes of extending your life span a couple of years, and then it was funny shit that rich people do naked in a room that's hotter than Tucson in July.

Sure, Magic/k may make you cringe because of all of the nonsense that a lot of people have attached to it over the years/centuries. If some spag manages to actually levitate at a thought, we're just going to have to call it Magic until we come up with a nifty name for the particle at work and the process involved.

When I see weird unexplainable shit happening, I'm not afraid to call it a ghost. Does that mean it's a dead soul playing tricks on me? No. It's just a short hand that encompasses a couple of weird unexplainable events that people can immediately relate to. And I've seen/heard really weird shit that I can't explain. We all have, haven't we? I remain agnostic about it. Maybe I used to take acid and don't remember that I did. But I'm pretty sure I never have, so something else must be at work. We need not be so wrapped up in technicalities that a perfectly good linguistic reference need be chucked out because it used to be all poppets and crows feathers.

Prevent used to mean go in front of. Just saying.

[East Coast Hustle]

Also, for clarity, are you saying ECH that putting yourself in life or death situations is the ideal way to find relaxation generally? Or that it's something everyone should do as part of their personal growth? Or

I'm just pointing it out as an example of something that forces you to focus on what's actually important in your life instead of getting hung up on and stressed out by what are, essentially, trivial things.

I think it absolutely CAN be an avenue towards personal growth, but it's certainly not the only one.

Now, for clarity, your previous post seems to come across as some form of implied holocaust denial. I'm asking for clarification because I can't picture you actually thinking that or meaning to have come across in a way that could be interpreted as that.

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm just going to throw my two cents in here, as far as word usage is concerned.

If words have specific meanings, as we are wont to say when we are ragging righteously on a newb, then we should accept that the jargon that we currently use is going to have to suffice for now. Our interpretations of the jargon may shift over time, but if it is a convenient shorthand, we shouldn't chuck it out based on the fact that there used to be superstition involved with it. To go back, the word yoga is a prime example of that. It used to be crazy swami shit, then it was a way to stretch in the hopes of extending your life span a couple of years, and then it was funny shit that rich people do naked in a room that's hotter than Tucson in July.

Sure, Magic/k may make you cringe because of all of the nonsense that a lot of people have attached to it over the years/centuries. If some spag manages to actually levitate at a thought, we're just going to have to call it Magic until we come up with a nifty name for the particle at work and the process involved.

When I see weird unexplainable shit happening, I'm not afraid to call it a ghost. Does that mean it's a dead soul playing tricks on me? No. It's just a short hand that encompasses a couple of weird unexplainable events that people can immediately relate to. And I've seen/heard really weird shit that I can't explain. We all have, haven't we? I remain agnostic about it. Maybe I used to take acid and don't remember that I did. But I'm pretty sure I never have, so something else must be at work. We need not be so wrapped up in technicalities that a perfectly good linguistic reference need be chucked out because it used to be all poppets and crows feathers.

Prevent used to mean go in front of. Just saying.

Well, that certainly warblesnarf minglefrig poopwattle, blurglevurp?

[East Coast Hustle]

I mean, I don't understand quadratic equations. But I still refer to them as quadratic equations and not numerology sigils. I think you proved my point more than you proved yours. The answer to defining things you don't understand is not to couch them in terms that come pre-loaded with bad signal.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm just going to throw my two cents in here, as far as word usage is concerned.

If words have specific meanings, as we are wont to say when we are ragging righteously on a newb, then we should accept that the jargon that we currently use is going to have to suffice for now. Our interpretations of the jargon may shift over time, but if it is a convenient shorthand, we shouldn't chuck it out based on the fact that there used to be superstition involved with it. To go back, the word yoga is a prime example of that. It used to be crazy swami shit, then it was a way to stretch in the hopes of extending your life span a couple of years, and then it was funny shit that rich people do naked in a room that's hotter than Tucson in July.

Sure, Magic/k may make you cringe because of all of the nonsense that a lot of people have attached to it over the years/centuries. If some spag manages to actually levitate at a thought, we're just going to have to call it Magic until we come up with a nifty name for the particle at work and the process involved.

When I see weird unexplainable shit happening, I'm not afraid to call it a ghost. Does that mean it's a dead soul playing tricks on me? No. It's just a short hand that encompasses a couple of weird unexplainable events that people can immediately relate to. And I've seen/heard really weird shit that I can't explain. We all have, haven't we? I remain agnostic about it. Maybe I used to take acid and don't remember that I did. But I'm pretty sure I never have, so something else must be at work. We need not be so wrapped up in technicalities that a perfectly good linguistic reference need be chucked out because it used to be all poppets and crows feathers.

Prevent used to mean go in front of. Just saying.

Well, that certainly warblesnarf minglefrig poopwattle, blurglevurp?

Except those don't actually have any meaning to them. They convey nothing.

But if my girlfriend and I are alone at her place watching a movie and we haven't made any significant movements in the past 30 minutes, and all previous major movements had no effect and her roommate's cello happens to fall over in an illogical direction for no apparent or logical reason, what are you going to call it? I'm ok with chuckling and saying poltergeist while i stand it back up. And it at least immediately conveys to another English (or German) speaker what I just experienced.

[Salty]

Words like ghost and spirit and magic are worse in my mind than lkjdsfjbdsfakj. As you say, they convey meaning. However, the application of meaning like your example is exactly why I treat them some hostility. I would think in such a scenario "Hey they cello fell over, that's weird." Nothing more. Because I don't have any info to go on. Meanwhile, is it a poltergeist? OR Are there things we can't pin down with a machine and rip into teeny pieces and study? I don't know. I don't want to rely on the word ghost for anything but fucking GHOSTS. Hovering and being all spookily and shit. I want to stomp that word and do what I can so that machine gets built and we can see what's what.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm just going to throw my two cents in here, as far as word usage is concerned.

If words have specific meanings, as we are wont to say when we are ragging righteously on a newb, then we should accept that the jargon that we currently use is going to have to suffice for now. Our interpretations of the jargon may shift over time, but if it is a convenient shorthand, we shouldn't chuck it out based on the fact that there used to be superstition involved with it. To go back, the word yoga is a prime example of that. It used to be crazy swami shit, then it was a way to stretch in the hopes of extending your life span a couple of years, and then it was funny shit that rich people do naked in a room that's hotter than Tucson in July.

Sure, Magic/k may make you cringe because of all of the nonsense that a lot of people have attached to it over the years/centuries. If some spag manages to actually levitate at a thought, we're just going to have to call it Magic until we come up with a nifty name for the particle at work and the process involved.

When I see weird unexplainable shit happening, I'm not afraid to call it a ghost. Does that mean it's a dead soul playing tricks on me? No. It's just a short hand that encompasses a couple of weird unexplainable events that people can immediately relate to. And I've seen/heard really weird shit that I can't explain. We all have, haven't we? I remain agnostic about it. Maybe I used to take acid and don't remember that I did. But I'm pretty sure I never have, so something else must be at work. We need not be so wrapped up in technicalities that a perfectly good linguistic reference need be chucked out because it used to be all poppets and crows feathers.

Prevent used to mean go in front of. Just saying.

Well, that certainly warblesnarf minglefrig poopwattle, blurglevurp?

The more I think about this, the more it seems like intentional pineal fnord.

We all know what we're friggin' talking about here. We're all actually on the same goddamn page. And it seems like you don't want to logically engage something that might be nascent neuroscience because the only language we have available to us is wrapped up in the woo, as LMNO would put it. Well, until we find more comfortable words, who the fuck cares? And you know what? We're supposed to be goddamn Discordians and not looking at shit with our preconceived notions. So if you can't jump into an "occult" thread without looking past the word occult, if you can't separate the wheat from the chaff, maybe you should just stay out of the thread.

With all honest due respect, seriously,
Twid

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Words like ghost and spirit and magic are worse in my mind than lkjdsfjbdsfakj. As you say, they convey meaning. However, the application of meaning like your example is exactly why I treat them some hostility. I would think in such a scenario "Hey they cello fell over, that's weird." Nothing more. Because I don't have any info to go on. Meanwhile, is it a poltergeist? OR Are there things we can't pin down with a machine and rip into teeny pieces and study? I don't know. I don't want to rely on the word ghost for anything but fucking GHOSTS. Hovering and being all spookily and shit. I want to stomp that word and do what I can so that machine gets built and we can see what's what.

At the end of the day, the cello still fell down with no reasonable explanation.


I don't know what knocked over the cello. Like I said, I'm an agnostic as far as that goes and am willing to entertain all plausible explanations. Until I get one, poltergeist is a universal call sign to the phenomenon, whether caused by actual "noise ghosts" or not.