Difficult Choices!

[Triple Zero]

the other night, BMW came up with a really interesting question on the IRC chat and he asked me to post it for him.

(00:44:23) B_M_W: Why is it that one person with intense psychological trauma survives and becomes stable, while another person becomes a bigot?
(00:45:07) B_M_W: And, if the general answer is environment,
(00:45:57) B_M_W: What environments generate stability, and what environments generate bigotry and similar afflictions?
(00:45:58) B_M_W: Also,
(00:46:05) _000: BMW are you sure "bigot" is the right word? acording to wikipedia it just means "a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own." .. wouldn't "bad person" be more accurate?
(00:47:09) B_M_W: How can one propagate good environments and change bad ones?

i don't have a good answer for it yet but i'll think about it.

IMO, it's a really good question. one of those simple things you usually don't stop and question.

it kind of reminds me of a while back when LHX started on the "origin of the lie" stuff, and i asked those questions at parties and got the most wonderful discussions out of it?
i'm gonna try the same with this one. got a feeling that might just work. maybe get no answers, but getting some solid new thoughts from people is always good

(that was partly from a PM i sent BMW)

now DISCUSS !!

[LHX]

my hunch is that bigotry eventually will lead to some intense psychological trauma which will force a person to learn how to overcome their prior psychological trauma properly


bigotry is not something that endures

sometimes it is not the 'good environment' which triggers the stability - sometimes it is the amplification of a bad environment



the phoenix is a pretty stable bird

[tyrannosaurus vex]

a phoenix is a mythological bird.

i know and have known people whose bigotry is so deeply ingrained in their personalities that they cease to be much more than machines that say stupid bigoted shit all the time.

it may be true that bigotry doesn't always endure, but often for it to crack and fade away, the bigot has to be confronted with a situation where things more important than his bigotry (like survival) depend on giving up the bigotry.  for most bigots, those moments never come.

more generally relating to the OP:

psychological trauma can't be expected to forge a personality any more reliably than any other factor.  there are so many variables involved in what makes up a person's identity.  if i were to make a blind generalization though, it would be along the lines that honesty in raising children plays a large part in it.  it's one thing to protect your child from psychological abuse, while teaching them that it exists; it's another thing to blind them to it completely and give them no weapons to defend themselves with against it when it comes.

there have been a few such traumatic events in my life. i think i'm lucky because the worst one fractured the entire bullshit-bubble i was initially raised in, and taught me to look out for more of the same.

[LHX]

a phoenix is a mythological bird.

i know and have known people whose bigotry is so deeply ingrained in their personalities that they cease to be much more than machines that say stupid bigoted shit all the time.

it may be true that bigotry doesn't always endure, but often for it to crack and fade away, the bigot has to be confronted with a situation where things more important than his bigotry (like survival) depend on giving up the bigotry.  for most bigots, those moments never come.

more generally relating to the OP:

psychological trauma can't be expected to forge a personality any more reliably than any other factor.  there are so many variables involved in what makes up a person's identity.  if i were to make a blind generalization though, it would be along the lines that honesty in raising children plays a large part in it.  it's one thing to protect your child from psychological abuse, while teaching them that it exists; it's another thing to blind them to it completely and give them no weapons to defend themselves with against it when it comes.

there have been a few such traumatic events in my life. i think i'm lucky because the worst one fractured the entire bullshit-bubble i was initially raised in, and taught me to look out for more of the same.

bigotry will not get anybody thru any gates (metaphorical or real) of any place that is good


bigotry does not endure


but when it is around - it sure is a attention grabber







a phoenix is a mythological bird

what i was referring to was the fact that sometimes when negativity is amplified - the result is something bigger and better than what could have otherwise been accomplished

[tyrannosaurus vex]

of course, 'good' is relative. and bigotry, like any philosophy, is self-reinforcing that way. to a bigot, a KKK rally is a better place to be than the Million Man March.  it takes a certain disconnection from reality and the flow of human events to see it that way, but that's what bigotry thrives on. it's as persistent as cancer, and it can jump from host to host like a virus.

people who become bigots as the result of psychological trauma are damaged goods anyway.

fuck those people and everybody like them.

[B_M_W]

a phoenix is a mythological bird.

i know and have known people whose bigotry is so deeply ingrained in their personalities that they cease to be much more than machines that say stupid bigoted shit all the time.

it may be true that bigotry doesn't always endure, but often for it to crack and fade away, the bigot has to be confronted with a situation where things more important than his bigotry (like survival) depend on giving up the bigotry.  for most bigots, those moments never come.

more generally relating to the OP:

psychological trauma can't be expected to forge a personality any more reliably than any other factor.  there are so many variables involved in what makes up a person's identity.  if i were to make a blind generalization though, it would be along the lines that honesty in raising children plays a large part in it.  it's one thing to protect your child from psychological abuse, while teaching them that it exists; it's another thing to blind them to it completely and give them no weapons to defend themselves with against it when it comes.

there have been a few such traumatic events in my life. i think i'm lucky because the worst one fractured the entire bullshit-bubble i was initially raised in, and taught me to look out for more of the same.

This was the sort of answer that will help me with this question.

people who become bigots as the result of psychological trauma are damaged goods anyway.

fuck those people and everybody like them.

This one is not.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

the 2nd one was a joke anyway

[Payne]

the other night, BMW came up with a really interesting question on the IRC chat and he asked me to post it for him.

(00:44:23) B_M_W: Why is it that one person with intense psychological trauma survives and becomes stable, while another person becomes a bigot?
(00:45:07) B_M_W: And, if the general answer is environment,
(00:45:57) B_M_W: What environments generate stability, and what environments generate bigotry and similar afflictions?
(00:45:58) B_M_W: Also,
(00:46:05) _000: BMW are you sure "bigot" is the right word? acording to wikipedia it just means "a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own." .. wouldn't "bad person" be more accurate?
(00:47:09) B_M_W: How can one propagate good environments and change bad ones?

i don't have a good answer for it yet but i'll think about it.

IMO, it's a really good question. one of those simple things you usually don't stop and question.

it kind of reminds me of a while back when LHX started on the "origin of the lie" stuff, and i asked those questions at parties and got the most wonderful discussions out of it?
i'm gonna try the same with this one. got a feeling that might just work. maybe get no answers, but getting some solid new thoughts from people is always good

(that was partly from a PM i sent BMW)

now DISCUSS !!

I think that there are some basic psychological facets of a persons personality that can swing the balance one way or another, as regards bigotery.

My father is a bigot. I have often compared him to a Nazi, but this is not strictly true. He's an authoritarian racist, and always has been. His interest in Nazism extends only so far as historical curiosity. He is, however, an incredibly intelligent guy.

For as long as I can remember, he has made racist comments and remarks, that you would think would shape MY opinions, if you follow the old adage about apples falling from trees. In reality though, I'm generally diametrically opposed to his philosophies, and have some pretty intense and heated debates with him in recent years.

The reason for this difference, I believe, is my own personality. I have a proclivity to depression, as many on both sides of my family do. I was bullied quite harshly at school, and despite my fathers hectoring I never 'fought back', physically, that is.

My strategy, for the most formative years, was to fade into the background and develop better diplomatic skills. I had no time to consider what I hate about an individuals culture, lifestyle or skin colour. I was concerned mostly with how well I could 'hide' behind them, how I could make someone else a more tempting target than me, or how I could sweet talk and manipulate people.

This has kind of led me to view EVERYONE as an abstract, not just one slice of humanity. And having someone else do the same thing to me has taught me that I'm no better.

Having thought about it a bit deeper, I think bigotery stems more from a supreme self confidance, where reliance on other people (in general) is replaced by a hatred of one particular group of people, to try and fit in with the people that attack you (in whatever form that 'attack' may take).

Environmental causes and effects are not as important as learned behaviour to circumstances. If one approach works once, then you are likely to repeat it, until you refine it into your 'philosophy'.

I hope this reads OK, I just woke up, and promised a reply to BMW and Trip in IRC last night...

[Triple Zero]

i still haven't come up with my own good answer, but this is why i think the question is so interesting:

first, bigotry is a bad thing.

now, you have a normal semihealthy regular average human being. there is a reasonably BIG chance this person will encounter psychological trauma.

if this trauma has the possibility to turn an otherwise medium human being into a bigot, and bigotry is a bad thing, it would be a good thing to make this possibility as small as possible.

if the most important factor that turns this fork in the road one way or another, is environment, then it would be a very good thing to figure out how to cultivate environments that tend to have people recover in the non-bigot quadrant.

and, would in the end, result in less bigotry overall.

[AFK]

I don't think it's clear cut.  I think environment surely is one factor.  The environment is a factor in many aspects of human society.  My work in substance abuse looks at different kind of strategies to address the behavior of substance abuse.  There are environmental strategies that focus on family, law enforcement, school policies, promotions, advertising, etc.  However, even though there is evidence to back up these kinds of strategies, it is also clear that you also need to look at Strength Based strategies that work on the personal level.

I think this is true with bigotry and people who turn out to be "bad people."

I grew up in a safe and healthy environment.  No one in my family drank or did drugs.  No one was violent or abusive verbally, physically, etc.  I pretty much grew up in a Cleaver-esque household.  [apologies to the young-uns who don't get the reference]  However, I've known people my age who grew up in similar environments that turned out quite differently.  

So, to shorten it up.  I think fostering a good and healthy environment for children to grow up in will certainly have an impact and affect on the issues that BMW is talking about.  And I think it is a worthwhile effort because it affects so many things.  At the same time, attention must also be paid on the individual level, for those individuals who are just naturally wired, despite environment, to go down a less savory path.  

[LMNO]

It seems to me that bigotry is a form of territorialism gone awry.  It's like an ossified us/them deliniation, applied with a wide brush, and never questioned. 

I think the reason it happens in some people and not others is the little quirks and fissures deep in our personalities that, whne built upon, create chasms.

If we put the 8 Circuit model on this, let's say that Joe has at least 4 layers already down before a traumatic incident befalls him.  He seeeks new things, is submissive, intelligent, and sexually moral.  I think his reaction and subsequent thought processes would be radically different than Keith, who doesn't like new things, is agressive, not intelligent, and sexually repressed.

To get cliche, our prison cells don't just shape our perceptions, they reinforce themselves to become even more entrenched and solid.

[Jasper]

To provide a plain and common answer, I'd say that traumatized people who are in a situation where they are communicating with people who are tolerant, compassionate, and bright, they will imprint these qualities, with any luck.

[B_M_W]

One of the things I was reminded of while thinking about this last night was the process of brainwashing. Essentially, brainwashing begins by inducing psychological trauma, and then afterward filling the void with new memes that are quickly grasped and held onto to fill the void and repair the damage. It seems to me that this "filling of the void" can easily occur after any psychological trauma, not just that induced by brainwashing, resulting in large psychological and personality changes. I'm reminded of people who are traumatized and "find religion" afterwards, often times becoming a fundamentalist.

The first thing that seems to me to be a part of an enviroment that promotes stability following trauma is by caution in introducing new ideas to the traumatized person. Because a traumatized person is very "sticky" when it comes to memes during this period, they should be monitored closely and the people who surround them should not introduce any strong memes to them without great caution.

I also am reminded of Reverse Brainwashing, something I wrote here about a year ago. The idea of that paper was to look at the beneficial possibilites of the brainwashing process in opening a persons mind to new ideas.

These are just the things I have right now. I'm trying to tie this in with Cram's meme thread in my head.

[Triple Zero]

interesting point about the brainwashing thing.

(you forgot to point out btw that the reverse brainwashing guide can be found in your sig)

maybe a "good" environment then would be some sort of "good parental" environment? because having a void in your head, ready for imprinting is kind of like being a child.

[B_M_W]

interesting point about the brainwashing thing.

(you forgot to point out btw that the reverse brainwashing guide can be found in your sig)

maybe a "good" environment then would be some sort of "good parental" environment? because having a void in your head, ready for imprinting is kind of like being a child.

I forgot to add that too, that young children or children in general have this same sort of stickyness so the same care is needed.

Also, I thought the link in my sig was obvious.