THE CANCER KILLING PDCOM - Blow-by-Blow Coverage of Democratic Primary Race

[Triple Zero]

I've taken in a couple of the debates.  The one they did in NH with both parties, and part of the NH debate after Hillary and Obama supposedly buried the hatchet (apparently in each other's backs).

I suppose you can learn a little bit about personalities, especially when they are asked a question they clearly don't want to answer.  But you get little to nothing out of them on actual policies they would enact as President.  They deal strictly in generalities when they aren't taking swipes at each other.  And I suppose some of the voters need that and may not be able to contemplate fine details, but damnit, don't tell me you're going to turn the Economy around, tell me HOW you are going to do it.

wouldn't you rather look at

- actual policies
- personal viewpoints on certain issues

?

or are you telling me that information really isn't out there?

[Cain]

You can find all that shit out on Wikipedia (and edit it, when you're bored).

[AFK]

I've taken in a couple of the debates.  The one they did in NH with both parties, and part of the NH debate after Hillary and Obama supposedly buried the hatchet (apparently in each other's backs).

I suppose you can learn a little bit about personalities, especially when they are asked a question they clearly don't want to answer.  But you get little to nothing out of them on actual policies they would enact as President.  They deal strictly in generalities when they aren't taking swipes at each other.  And I suppose some of the voters need that and may not be able to contemplate fine details, but damnit, don't tell me you're going to turn the Economy around, tell me HOW you are going to do it.

wouldn't you rather look at

- actual policies
- personal viewpoints on certain issues

?

or are you telling me that information really isn't out there?

Oh sure, it's out there.  On their campaign websites, in the news, etc., but I think the best potential to learn about a candidate, as a person, is them answering a question on-the-spot.  For example, I saw an event Romney did at a Staples, I think it was in New Hampshire.  Anyway, one of the press people started to, uh press, him on someone in his campaign who was a lobbyist.  He was basically using the Clinton technique of "Well it depends on what your definition of "is" is."  The press guy was saying Romney had a lobbyist heading his campaign while Romney said he was "an advisor".  Anyway, an exchange like that tells me alot about this guy and how he probably isn't very trustworthy.  I know, I know, shocker right?


But when a politician has time to prepare their message, they go over it with a fine-tooth comb.  Not to make sure it has the most amount of truth and validity in it, but to make sure it's going to maximize their poll numbers, primary votes., etc.  I want to see what they are like when they have to be on their toes. 

[Cramulus]

word. Politicians spend most of their time preparing themselves to attack and defend in certain ways, to cover their weak points and maximize their opponents' weak points. When someone asks them a question which takes them off guard, you can see the gears in their head grinding. The good ones think on their feet. The bad ones repeat themselves,  fall back on rhetoric, they change the topic... The debates are full of that stuff, it's wonderful.

That's exactly why Hillary is beating Obama IMHO. The opinion that Obama has less experience is supported by his inability to adlib when thrown a curveball. Hillary, on the other hand, can take a random question and turn it into a touching emotional moment.

[Cain]

Plus if half the Democratic Party were reporters, their assignments would read: embedded up Hillary Clinton's arse.

She's been in politics for 20+ years, including 8 years right next to the seat of power.  She has a power structure embedded within the Democratic party that has been built up for a generation, at the highest levels of government and media, and that counts for a hell of a lot.

[AFK]

Yeah.  I think Obama is getting a lot of anti-Hillary votes from Democrats who really can't stomach going through 4 to 8 years of another Clinton presidency.  I've already heard a couple of talking-heads suggest there will be new inquiries by the Republicans if she gets into power.  It'll be like the 90's all over again, except, probably without the good economy. 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Hillary just comes across to me as another in-crowd politician with a calculated agenda and a premeditated career. Her ambition to be President is just the logical conclusion to everything she's done so far, and every step she has taken has been deliberately planned. That just turns me off to begin with, before we even get into her political beliefs or her agenda. Both of those suck but you can afford to ignore them since, like every other politicians, her beliefs and agenda will change like magic the moment she takes an
oath of office.

Plus, if Hillary is elected, she will be able to get practically nothing done unless the Democrats win the kind of majority in Congress that would obsolete the entire Republican Party, which isn't going to happen. But I don't think Hillary is even electable. It's looking like the Republican nominee is going to be McCain, who has broad appeal to a lot of people, including Democrats. And half of Democrats hate Hillary anyway.

I know a guy who is going to vote for Hillary just because he wants a Democrat in the White House -- nevermind that her foreign policy is basically identical to Dubya's; nevermind that Hillary is obviously a scheming, manipulative politician who will say anything and adopt any stance to win votes; nevermind that she is another corporate-sponsored candidate.

But is there a realistic alternative? I think Obama is more electable than Hillary is, against McCain or any other Republican. The problem is that so many Democrats are fooled by Hillary's bullshit that Obama won't get the nomination, and then their party will lose the White House for another 8 years.

[Diseris]

The dems will lose again if they don't put a southerner up for president against the republicans.  I don't think the senator from New York counts as a southerner any more and I don't think Obama has Kennedy's presence.  The Dems are doomed yet again this round   



   I'll get you and your little dog too!
           \

[Cain]

Is the idea that Obama can't win really that tenable though?  I keep a close eye on Alternet, where a lot of the Democratic progressives hang out, and the consensus is that Obama trounced Hillary totally (well, he did) and that its still too close to call.  There is a fair representation of Democratic views over there, and they don't seem to feel Obama is out of it at all.

Also, if McCain is ascending in the polls, which he seems to be, might not independents come out more heavily in support of Obama in upcoming primaries?

[Diseris]

I'm not sure how much impact independents have in the primaries, or how many states let them vote.  Independents don't get a vote in the primaries as you can only vote within your party in the primaries here.

I need to look at some demographics on the first part, but historically it doesn't look feasible, verifying. 

[Cain]

Are you sure?  I'm certain in New Hampshire the independent vote was vital for McCain's victory...

[Diseris]

I'm not sure how much impact independents have in the primaries, or how many states let them vote.  Independents don't get a vote in the primaries in washington state as you can only vote within your party in the primaries here.

sry fixt.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Is the idea that Obama can't win really that tenable though?  I keep a close eye on Alternet, where a lot of the Democratic progressives hang out, and the consensus is that Obama trounced Hillary totally (well, he did) and that its still too close to call.  There is a fair representation of Democratic views over there, and they don't seem to feel Obama is out of it at all.

Also, if McCain is ascending in the polls, which he seems to be, might not independents come out more heavily in support of Obama in upcoming primaries?

Obama can win in a general election, but I don't know about his chances in the Democratic nomination process. In general, the Democratic party is solidly split between people who will vote for Hillary no matter what, and people who won't vote for Hillary no matter what. Which of the two sides is larger or more likely to actually vote in primaries remains to be seen. We know that the media is pro-Hillary for the most part so we can expect poll numbers to suggest Hillary is in the lead.

Hillary is definitely out of the "inevitable winner" slot, and until Feb. 5 nobody can be sure what will happen. It's boding well for Obama that voter turnout, especially among younger voters, has broken records in almost every state so far. If that patter can be maintained through next Tuesday he might yet win.

I just don't know that it will matter with the establishment so entrenched and pro-Hillary. Many Democrats are convinced for some reason that Hillary would fare better in a general election than Obama would, so there's a lot of strategy-voting going on. Maybe it's the same fear that I have for Obama in a general election -- that millions of dumbshit Americans who would normally never vote in their life will crawl out from under a rock somewhere to vote for the Republican candidate just because they would just die if there was ever a Black man in the White House. I don't think that's really what would happen, but the fear of that happening just might be enough to stop Democrats from nominating Obama.

[Diseris]

-- that millions of dumbshit Americans who would normally never vote in their life will crawl out from under a rock somewhere to vote for the Republican candidate just because they would just die if there was ever a Black man in the White House. I don't think that's really what would happen, but the fear of that happening just might be enough to stop Democrats from nominating Obama.

My fear is that same crowd plus a few will come out for Hil as well.

2 non-southern democratic presidents since the civil war:

FDR and JFK...start the BHO chant, that'll work.

[Cain]

I'm not sure how much impact independents have in the primaries, or how many states let them vote.  Independents don't get a vote in the primaries in washington state as you can only vote within your party in the primaries here.

sry fixt.

Ah, I see.

Hillary is definitely out of the "inevitable winner" slot, and until Feb. 5 nobody can be sure what will happen. It's boding well for Obama that voter turnout, especially among younger voters, has broken records in almost every state so far. If that patter can be maintained through next Tuesday he might yet win.

Although, Hillary seemed pretty convinced she wasn't going to win South Carolina, and spent her time in Feb 5th states while Bill crashed and burned for her in SC.  But yes, I can see it coming down to whose bloc of core voters is bigger, which is worrying.

Do you think the Kennedy endorsement for Obama counts for much?