The Atheist Delusion

[Cain]

Yeah.  Hamas and Hezbollah get alot of their support from their poverty outreach programs, where they feed and clothe the poor.

Of course, it could be that in many cases a religious impulse is often the reason one goes out giving masses of food to the poor...but then we get into an argument about first causes and psychology that will likely never be resolved.

[e]

"Which came first, the religion or the free food?"

(Also, "a lot is two words")

[Cain]

Not any more!

[e]

Oh, internet 

[BootyBay]

Of course, it could be that in many cases a religious impulse is often the reason one goes out giving masses of food to the poor...but then we get into an argument about first causes and psychology that will likely never be resolved.

I kinda doubt it's a religious impulse.  I believe Hamas/Hezbollah function in a way similar to the mafia when it first started out.  That is, in a way to benefit the people directly and not be held accountable to any external regulatory systems.

On a different topic, I don't understand why I'm supposed to condemn the Palestinians for electing a terrorist group into power.  They wanted them to be their leaders, so why is that such a bad thing?  And it's understandable, too.  After facing more than a half-century of hostility from their closest neighbor, wouldn't they want to have leaders willing to defend their territory?  And why should I think Israel is a hopeless victim in the Middle East when they continue to pursue acts of aggression on their muslim neighbors?  Are they (the other countries in the mid-east) really so naive as to be totally off-base about Israel's intolerance for coexistence?  Maybe the rational thing to do would be to relocate the people of Israel yet again seeing as how a) the Allies after WWI destroyed the stability of the region with the Treaty of Versailles and b) they then seized land for the Jews as repairations for the Holocaust after WWII.  I can see why so many people are so pissed off at the US and Israel.

[e]

On a different topic, I don't understand why I'm supposed to condemn the Palestinians for electing a terrorist group into power.  They wanted them to be their leaders, so why is that such a bad thing?

You should know by now that it's only democracy if America likes it.  I tell you, when France wasn't all for sending all of its troops down to Iraq to fight the evil terrorist regime, I saw a couple of bumper stickers on people's cars in the deep south-east of the US which said "BAN FRANCE" on them.  Because you know, nothing says democracy like immediately trying to boycott everything from a country that doesn't agree with you on everything.

[Cain]

So we should punish innocent Israelis for the actions of their democratic government....but not innocent Palestinians for the actions of their democratic government (ignoring the for moment that Hamas' military arm is in fact more of a private militia attached to a political party)?

GREAT IDEA!

Incidentally, I believe the large scale forceable movement of people based on nationality is known as ethnic cleansing and is an international war crime for which you can be tried by any country in the world.

There are Israelis who have been born and lived in Israel all of their lives, just as their are Palestinians who have been born and raised in Palestine all their lives.  Should the Israelis stop being dicks, disband the settlements and not resort to military incursions everytime someone in the Occupied Territories sneezes?  Sure.  Equally, should the supposed Palestinian nationalist movements try not killing innocent civilians, promoting Sharia law and taking handouts from Israel's military enemies?  Again yes, unless they want to be seen as proxies for its eventual destruction.

As it happens, I condemn Palestianians for voting Hamas in, in the same way I condemn Israelis for voting for Sharon or Americans for Bush or Brits for Blair.  Because these people and their political programs are fucktarded in the extreme.  They're free to chose and I'm free to call bullshit on their choices.

As an aside, it was the dissolution of the Caliphate by Kemal Ataturk which really screwed up the Middle East.  That was the regional hegemon, and the Turks were good at enforcing order.  He decided the costs of empire were greater than the benefits and so cut loose much of the Middle East, dumping the mess into the lap of the victors, who obviously had no clue as to what sort of shitstorm they had inherited.

[atrasicarius]

So we should punish innocent Israelis for the actions of their democratic government....but not innocent Palestinians for the actions of their democratic government (ignoring the for moment that Hamas' military arm is in fact more of a private militia attached to a political party)?

GREAT IDEA!

Incidentally, I believe the large scale forceable movement of people based on nationality is known as ethnic cleansing and is an international war crime for which you can be tried by any country in the world.

There are Israelis who have been born and lived in Israel all of their lives, just as their are Palestinians who have been born and raised in Palestine all their lives.  Should the Israelis stop being dicks, disband the settlements and not resort to military incursions everytime someone in the Occupied Territories sneezes?  Sure.  Equally, should the supposed Palestinian nationalist movements try not killing innocent civilians, promoting Sharia law and taking handouts from Israel's military enemies?  Again yes, unless they want to be seen as proxies for its eventual destruction.

As it happens, I condemn Palestianians for voting Hamas in, in the same way I condemn Israelis for voting for Sharon or Americans for Bush or Brits for Blair.  Because these people and their political programs are fucktarded in the extreme.  They're free to chose and I'm free to call bullshit on their choices.

As an aside, it was the dissolution of the Caliphate by Kemal Ataturk which really screwed up the Middle East.  That was the regional hegemon, and the Turks were good at enforcing order.  He decided the costs of empire were greater than the benefits and so cut loose much of the Middle East, dumping the mess into the lap of the victors, who obviously had no clue as to what sort of shitstorm they had inherited.

Well said.

[BootyBay]

So we should punish innocent Israelis for the actions of their democratic government....but not innocent Palestinians for the actions of their democratic government (ignoring the for moment that Hamas' military arm is in fact more of a private militia attached to a political party)?

GREAT IDEA!

Incidentally, I believe the large scale forceable movement of people based on nationality is known as ethnic cleansing and is an international war crime for which you can be tried by any country in the world.

There are Israelis who have been born and lived in Israel all of their lives, just as their are Palestinians who have been born and raised in Palestine all their lives.  Should the Israelis stop being dicks, disband the settlements and not resort to military incursions everytime someone in the Occupied Territories sneezes?  Sure.  Equally, should the supposed Palestinian nationalist movements try not killing innocent civilians, promoting Sharia law and taking handouts from Israel's military enemies?  Again yes, unless they want to be seen as proxies for its eventual destruction.

As it happens, I condemn Palestianians for voting Hamas in, in the same way I condemn Israelis for voting for Sharon or Americans for Bush or Brits for Blair.  Because these people and their political programs are fucktarded in the extreme.  They're free to chose and I'm free to call bullshit on their choices.

As an aside, it was the dissolution of the Caliphate by Kemal Ataturk which really screwed up the Middle East.  That was the regional hegemon, and the Turks were good at enforcing order.  He decided the costs of empire were greater than the benefits and so cut loose much of the Middle East, dumping the mess into the lap of the victors, who obviously had no clue as to what sort of shitstorm they had inherited.

Well, I certainly don't want to punish innocent Israelis (I suppose their government is similar to ours in terms of their imperialistic-ness).  I'd like to see a cease to the fighting.  I'm really not sure who or what instigated the violence in the first place but it's gone on long enough.  True, I should have thought out the Hamas being elected a bit more (a terrorist organization is not exactly helping anything).  If there was any way to resolve this bloodshed, I'd be all for it (I'm sure 99% of people would be, too). Like Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I do wonder why we care so much about the fighting going on between those two countries but ignore (for the most part) serious events happening in Africa.

[e]

Really what needs to happens is the rounding up and shooting of all politicians.   (OH NOES!  I just mixed politics with religion!! )

[atrasicarius]

Well, I certainly don't want to punish innocent Israelis (I suppose their government is similar to ours in terms of their imperialistic-ness).  I'd like to see a cease to the fighting.  I'm really not sure who or what instigated the violence in the first place but it's gone on long enough.  True, I should have thought out the Hamas being elected a bit more (a terrorist organization is not exactly helping anything).  If there was any way to resolve this bloodshed, I'd be all for it (I'm sure 99% of people would be, too). Like Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I do wonder why we care so much about the fighting going on between those two countries but ignore (for the most part) serious events happening in Africa.

What started the fighting was the fact that a bunch of Europeans came in and said, "We're taking your holy land and giving it to a different country with a different religion. Hope you dont mind." Then they gave a shitload of guns to the new nation they just created, which proceeded to fight and win seven wars with neighboring countries.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well, I certainly don't want to punish innocent Israelis (I suppose their government is similar to ours in terms of their imperialistic-ness).  I'd like to see a cease to the fighting.  I'm really not sure who or what instigated the violence in the first place but it's gone on long enough.  True, I should have thought out the Hamas being elected a bit more (a terrorist organization is not exactly helping anything).  If there was any way to resolve this bloodshed, I'd be all for it (I'm sure 99% of people would be, too). Like Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I do wonder why we care so much about the fighting going on between those two countries but ignore (for the most part) serious events happening in Africa.

What started the fighting was the fact that a bunch of Europeans came in and said, "We're taking your holy land and giving it to a different country with a different religion. Hope you dont mind." Then they gave a shitload of guns to the new nation they just created, which proceeded to fight and win seven wars with neighboring countries.

So?  Are we supposed to suddenly start giving a fuck about two groups of people that REFUSE to get along?

Fuck them.  Fuck them right in their fanatical ears.  If they had ANY sort of consideration for the rest of us, they'd have KILLED EACH OTHER OFF, so the rest of us could GET SOME FUCKING SLEEP.

So stop whimpering that one of the groups is somehow morally superior to the other.  They are fucking monkeys, and monkeys are all the same.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I do wonder why we care so much about the fighting going on between those two countries but ignore (for the most part) serious events happening in Africa.

Because that is what you've been TOLD to give a shit about.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

On a different topic, I don't understand why I'm supposed to condemn the Palestinians for electing a terrorist group into power. 

That's not why you're supposed to be pissed at them.

Dumbass.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Well, I certainly don't want to punish innocent Israelis (I suppose their government is similar to ours in terms of their imperialistic-ness).  I'd like to see a cease to the fighting.  I'm really not sure who or what instigated the violence in the first place but it's gone on long enough.  True, I should have thought out the Hamas being elected a bit more (a terrorist organization is not exactly helping anything).  If there was any way to resolve this bloodshed, I'd be all for it (I'm sure 99% of people would be, too). Like Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I do wonder why we care so much about the fighting going on between those two countries but ignore (for the most part) serious events happening in Africa.

What started the fighting was the fact that a bunch of Europeans came in and said, "We're taking your holy land and giving it to a different country with a different religion. Hope you dont mind." Then they gave a shitload of guns to the new nation they just created, which proceeded to fight and win seven wars with neighboring countries.

So?  Are we supposed to suddenly start giving a fuck about two groups of people that REFUSE to get along?

Fuck them.  Fuck them right in their fanatical ears.  If they had ANY sort of consideration for the rest of us, they'd have KILLED EACH OTHER OFF, so the rest of us could GET SOME FUCKING SLEEP.

So stop whimpering that one of the groups is somehow morally superior to the other.  They are fucking monkeys, and monkeys are all the same.

QFT