What makes us so different?

[Verbal Mike]

And yet I often catch myself thinking, what would the peedycomers think?. It's a very stupid reflex, but I find it hard to imagine it's just me who is like this. I don't exactly see myself as an unusually conforming individual.
This place is a very cool place to hang out, and many of you guys are clearly of unusual intelligence and eloquence. A human brain that wishes to join the fun is likely to try and rewire itself to fit in better.
It is an inescapable fact that sombunall newbs will try to parrot or emulate the language and attitude of some of the more prominent members of the community. People used to groupthink are not going to just magically start thinking 100% individually - and a huge majority of humanity is used to groupthink. I would not be surprised if groupthink turned out to be based on a genetic trait present in all of mankind - in the environment where humanity evolved, it was a survival mechanism.

[Cainad (dec.)]

...And then there's me, who wonders why we can't all just keep a collection of various maps in our mental briefcase.

One map will only get you so far and only tell you so much. It doesn't have to be an earth-shaking event each time an individual starts using a new one.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

One of the things that I think annoys many people about newbies here is their tendency (which I have not seen on other boards, only here) to interject utter pineal nonsense into perfectly interesting threads. I'm not sure where the idea to get this comes from, but it seems obvious that many n00bs think it's The Thing to Do, and if no one responds with delight and accolades, or instead is (quite reasonably) annoyed that some spaz seems to be trying to hijack the thread, they get all defensive and accuse us of not having a sense of silliness, which is quite unfair.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, I'm not sure we ARE fundamentally different, or that being different is some sort of elevated goal. It's like the age-old question, "What sets Man apart from the animals?"

It's a red herring. Man is not different from "the animals", but among the animals, Man is as different from other species as a horse is different from a badger. There is no need to look for "The Difference"; it does not exist.

[Payne]

Regardless of this discussion about maps, beyond the intellectual debates, "we" are a social group, liable to social pressures and dynamics.

To make this miniature society work, "we" ask that newcomers comply with a loose template of the kind of people we like.

This is a very loose template, but it does seem to exist.

"We" are only monkeys, after all.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

...And then there's me, who wonders why we can't all just keep a collection of various maps in our mental briefcase.

One map will only get you so far and only tell you so much. It doesn't have to be an earth-shaking event each time an individual starts using a new one.

Because we have all been programmed to believe that somewhere, there is the One True Map that will free us from uncertainty and doubt, and will be adequate and appropriate 100% of the time.

One of the things that I think annoys many people about newbies here is their tendency (which I have not seen on other boards, only here) to interject utter pineal nonsense into perfectly interesting threads.

That is one thing that annoys me about everyone on this board, not just noobs. Even myself sometimes.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

...And then there's me, who wonders why we can't all just keep a collection of various maps in our mental briefcase.

One map will only get you so far and only tell you so much. It doesn't have to be an earth-shaking event each time an individual starts using a new one.

I agree 123%. I fact, that reads to me like a single sentence distillation of RAW's "Model Agnosticism" and the point behind my YABIPM.

We have a idea of the territory "There are always restrictions on our ability to interact fully with REALITY". Some people created a map "The territory is like a BiP", but it seems, that this is the Main way that people have decided to interpret the territory (in this example). Yet, this seems limiting in and of itself...

There appear to me, lots of ways to model the territory "There are always restrictions on our ability to interact fully with REALITY". Some of them seem useful in some applications, others seem useful in other applications. Some people seem trapped in their perceptions and restrictions, for them the territory may very much be like a BiP. However, for others, they may not be trapped in their perceptions or trapped in their human sensory limits. After all, while the astronaut may have to remain in his space suit to experience a spacewalk, I doubt he thinks that he's trapped or limited, rather he's more likely to be very happy to have the suit's restrictions, or the ships restrictions... otherwise he would have no way to explore to coolness of space. The deep sea diver may be similar, she may not be "trapped" in her submarine or her pressure suit... she probably sees them as awesome tools which allow her to explore further than ever before. While using them, these explorers may find artificial limits that can be engineered around... improved upon... but there are also limits (like access to oxygen, pressurized environment etc) that can't be changed or engineered around.

It seems to me that overall PD.COM has done a fantastic job of getting really deeply into the map of the territory that resembles a prison... and it may occasionally seem that people confuse the map and territory, particularly in the perspective of n00bs, who might be used to a more positive view that "Black Prison" might invoke.

Muddles of models... 

[LMNO]

I think this problem is artifactual though. A year ago, any critique of the BiP or Barstool Experiment seemed likely to be met with "NO YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG"... whereas now, the general response seems much less defensive and more interested in refining the ideas.

When I have an idea I like, I treat it as something to explore.  To that end, I temporarily hold it higher than other ideas.  I'll go after critics, and defend my idea fiercly.  If it doesn't hold up, that will soon become evident.

After time passes, I can lower my opinion of the idea, and start polishing.  I can start sanding off the rough edges, maybe merge it into something else.

But if I didn't actively defend my new idea, no one else would, either, and it would quickly die a relativistic death.

In the end, I think our group works hard to abstain from labeling everything and Group Think...

but in the end "We're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings" - Dr Steel. 

Sometimes I think you're reading this board with a filter that deletes all the self-depricating, "We're all monkey, we're in prison too, we're all assholes, we're a bunch of fucktards" comments.

Because you're making it sound like we're claiming to be the ubermensch, or something.

[Requia ☣]

I just remembered something.

When I first came here, I stuck around because of how ridiculously *original* this place was, you weren't busy rehashing old ideas, or even just talking about other people's ideas.  You had your *own* damned ideas.  Appeals to authority were rapidly dismissed (perhaps a little too hard sometimes).  As the 'you' became 'we' (damn Roger's mind control lasers),  I found that that spark of originality is rarer than I thought, and forgot about just how different this place was coming in as an outsider.

Also, this has to be the only group of people I've ever known where I could ask that question and have it not be a troll.

[Verbal Mike]

I just remembered something.

When I first came here, I stuck around because of how ridiculously *original* this place was, you weren't busy rehashing old ideas, or even just talking about other people's ideas.  You had your *own* damned ideas.  Appeals to authority were rapidly dismissed (perhaps a little too hard sometimes).  As the 'you' became 'we' (damn Roger's mind control lasers),  I found that that spark of originality is rarer than I thought, and forgot about just how different this place was coming in as an outsider.

Also, this has to be the only group of people I've ever known where I could ask that question and have it not be a troll.

This also reminds me what really amazed me here, in the beginning: in a word, POSTERGASM - that it's not all talk, that there is a sense of actually doing something IRL. This is extremely rare, not only in the Internet but amongst activists everywhere.

[Raphaella]

Speaking as someone who has recently started posting here, I would say that this place IS different from most others and here is why:

For one I agree with Verbatim about the POSTERGASM thing, most places are all theory and no action, here ideas spread and it actually gets done IRL!! 
Not only that but it makes me WANT to go out and be a part of it too. Not because I want to fit in, not because I feel pressured or any of that silly shit. I want to do this because it's a great fucking idea!! It's fun as hell AND I can get plenty of other people, other non-Discordian people to do it with me. (Going to Kinko's this week I suppose) 

This was the second Discordian message board I stopped at, and I stuck here because instead of 23's and Fnords I have found it is full of things that MAKE me think. 
While thinking, I tend to get inspired to write, read/learn, create, and go out and doooooo something. (And that is how the peedee changed my life... )

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think this problem is artifactual though. A year ago, any critique of the BiP or Barstool Experiment seemed likely to be met with "NO YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG"... whereas now, the general response seems much less defensive and more interested in refining the ideas.

When I have an idea I like, I treat it as something to explore.  To that end, I temporarily hold it higher than other ideas.  I'll go after critics, and defend my idea fiercly.  If it doesn't hold up, that will soon become evident.

After time passes, I can lower my opinion of the idea, and start polishing.  I can start sanding off the rough edges, maybe merge it into something else.

But if I didn't actively defend my new idea, no one else would, either, and it would quickly die a relativistic death.

Sure, its good to defend a new model... but the BiP model has been floating around for a couple years now. I guess I approach models differently. If I come up with a new model, once its fleshed out, I try to figure out what it doesn't model, rather than defending what it does. So maybe its just a difference in approach.

In the end, I think our group works hard to abstain from labeling everything and Group Think...

but in the end "We're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings" - Dr Steel. 

Sometimes I think you're reading this board with a filter that deletes all the self-depricating, "We're all monkey, we're in prison too, we're all assholes, we're a bunch of fucktards" comments.

Because you're making it sound like we're claiming to be the ubermensch, or something.

I certianly didn't intend it that way. My point was that we are monkeys and we work damn hard not to be monkeys (but the programs still occasionally run... that is, we may try hard not to ever has teh Groupthink, but old programs still run). We are a self-deprecating group, and I think that shines through in most of the posts at pd.com.

I just remembered something.

When I first came here, I stuck around because of how ridiculously *original* this place was, you weren't busy rehashing old ideas, or even just talking about other people's ideas.  You had your *own* damned ideas.  Appeals to authority were rapidly dismissed (perhaps a little too hard sometimes).  As the 'you' became 'we' (damn Roger's mind control lasers),  I found that that spark of originality is rarer than I thought, and forgot about just how different this place was coming in as an outsider.

Also, this has to be the only group of people I've ever known where I could ask that question and have it not be a troll.

This also reminds me what really amazed me here, in the beginning: in a word, POSTERGASM - that it's not all talk, that there is a sense of actually doing something IRL. This is extremely rare, not only in the Internet but amongst activists everywhere.

I agree. I love all of the GASM activity... it feels like Discordians doing something, rather than Discordians reading a book about Discordians doing something

This Forum Rocks, otherwise I wouldn't hang around. But, I don't have a problem with realizing that like all other monkeys, our tribe will develop taboos and traditions and groupthink. Of course, since we all realize our monkeydom, then if we see monkey programs, maybe it will be easier to break them.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Our heads are smart so our memes are strong.

We're playing with fire

[Triple Zero]

Sometimes, people that think for themselves may decide "Hey, I like the memes from the PD. I think I will use them and be silly." Sometimes I do. The use of memes doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't thinking for themselves, does it? It may mean they simply thought up a different answer, or maybe they grokked the funnay in the PD and some spags here didn't. Of course, it may also mean that they aren't thinking for themselves... but what's wrong with that, if its what they want to do?

nothing, but they can go do it somewhere else, right?

the memes from the PD are basically about jokes, and if they spew them here, nobody is laughing.

At any rate, it does seem, to me, that we often presume that a n00b NEEDS our Map, or that their own map is somehow wrong, because it involves 23PINEALOMGZLAWLOFFIVES... yet, that map may be just as useful as ZOMGBiPGSPBlackSwan! to some people.

shit, ratatosk... what's the use of even discussing stuff with you if you act like you totally understand it and then weeks later appear to have completely forgotten/not learned a thing? (sorry i may sound a bit annoyed, but i did spend effort in those discussions)

remember when i explained you how, for example, Leary's 8 circuit model of the mind is old and has been surpassed by newer and better theories in psychology? just because someone had an idea once doesn't mean it will stay an equally useful map as any other until the end of times!

do you ever invalidate a map?

or do you say all of them are equally possible/useful, mr model agnostic? then how about theories that are being developed, are all prior versions starting at the initial spark of inspiration just as useful as the finished theory? even if the theory hit a few dead end streets along the way? how does that work?

I'm all for publishing as many maps as we can make of the territory, I'm all for making them freely available and accessible to anyone, I'm all for challenging whatever maps anyone uses (including the BiP and PinealFnords)... but I do think that (at least occasionally) we seem to think that handing someone a map and saying "use this", might be a bit of Group Think.

well i think that's a bad idea. if you just consider everything equally useful and valid, it'll be super easy to simply flood the meme-o-sphere with maps, regardless of their content.

the end result?

nobody can consider all those maps seriously anymore, simply for lack of information-processing time (i have a limited speed with which i can read and think), which in the end will cause people to simply stick to the one they grew up with, or the first one they use to rebel with, or just pick any random one.

if everything is valid, you will be blinded by choice.

------- okay other things ITT

And yet I often catch myself thinking, what would the peedycomers think?. It's a very stupid reflex, but I find it hard to imagine it's just me who is like this.

yes. this is the egregor thing described in the Art of Memetics (ZOMG! ). it's like .. eh .. too complex to explain right now cause i'm short on time. but it's very useful to think like that, don't you think?
if you are in a situation and consider what PD would think, it's still your own thoughts making up the answer, but they come from a different subroutine, a new one that you learned.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Our heads are smart so our memes are strong.

We're playing with fire