War

[Requia ☣]

War is a seriously fucked up thing.  I'm not talking about the killing and destruction and all that though.  I'm talking about the part where leaders actually convince thousands, sometimes millions of people to go off and die.  And yes, it's one thing to be attacked, but there is something deeply broken in the human mind that allows it to actually go out and join the army, or even to be conscripted, for no reason other than because someone put up a propaganda poster.

[Payne]

War is a seriously fucked up thing.  I'm not talking about the killing and destruction and all that though.  I'm talking about the part where leaders actually convince thousands, sometimes millions of people to go off and die.  And yes, it's one thing to be attacked, but there is something deeply broken in the human mind that allows it to actually go out and join the army, or even to be conscripted, for no reason other than because someone put up a propaganda poster.

Well, I'm sure you can ask whatever questions you may have about it here.

We have a number of ex-military personnel who will be happy to help.

My thoughts: not everyone joins just because of propaganda posters, there can be any number of reasons for someone to join the army, much like there can be any number of reasons why someone may make any other choice.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

In the late 80's most joined for the college money and to travel.   Some liked it so well they stayed in.

My issue with the service is sending in boys who haven't even had a chance to live before they get killed.   

That and I don't think this is our war.  We should bring our troops home.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think that there may be many reasons that someone would join the military. Perhaps for college or money, maybe to see the world and maybe to protect the country that they live in. Unlike mosbunal other hippies, I have no qualms with realizing that sometimes it may be necessary to kill monkeys that are trying to kill us.

However, it seems silly to me, to crow about our "poor troops" in harms way, or to cry that GWB "killed my son". When people join the military, they are agreeing to shoot people and get shot at by people, in exchange for whatever reason they may have (money, travel, school, patriotism). It's not like the US has a sterling record of only entering wars that they cannot avoid, or always doing their best to make the war quick and painless as possible. Hell, since WW II, they don't even seem to care about actual justification and often seem to have been playing both sides of the field. I have no issue with anyone that joins, I have no issue with the people that become contentious objectors based on the conflict they've been asked to partake in. However, if they voluntarily go into a theater and shoot at people, they (and their families) must be willing to deal with the ultimate 'worst case scenario'.

Personal responsibility and all that.

[Adios]

I joined to avoid going to State School for a year. I was a real bad boy. See, I was a runaway from an abusive step-father and spent a year in a parental home before the judge decided I was a threat and gave me the option. Of course this was during the 'Nam era.

I think you jumped the gun in your OP. Many young men and women actually believe in patriotism and serving their country. I do not think this deserves ridicule.

Many of us here think we are serving our country by our actions.

Many people in the service see it as the only way out of hell.

Meh. ignore me.

[Requia ☣]

And here my suckiness at communication comes through, because I don't think I got the point across, which is an attack on the part of the human mind that makes war possible.

[Payne]

Eternal peace would be pretty boring.

The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.

Do you want to be a sheep?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And yes, it's one thing to be attacked, but there is something deeply broken in the human mind that allows it to actually go out and join the army,

I guess I am (or was) broken, then.



But you know what else is broken?  Broad-brush characterizations.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

And here my suckiness at communication comes through, because I don't think I got the point across, which is an attack on the part of the human mind that makes war possible.

Ah Oh!

Well I think the answer may be "Because we're subject to the programs of the ancient human beings." (Dr. Steel)

I mean if evolution is true in some sense, it seems obvious that territorial instincts aka Leary's "Second Circuit", must have at least some responsibility for the human capability for War. We've witnessed chimps, our closest DNA relatives, hunt and kill members of other chimp packs... particularly if they get too close to their territory. I think the process has become even more complex among humans, with all sorts of justification for war based on a 'territory' of ideas, beliefs or dogmas.

Maybe


EDIT:

Joyce talks about where he thought war came from in Finnegan's Wake. (discussion in Prometheus Rising pg 88-89) Of course, he was insane, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3008136/Prometheus-Rising-by-Robert-Anton-Wilson

[Cain]

There is a very good book called War in Human Civilization by Dr Azar Gat, which is very worth reading.

Its about 700 pages long, but it researches the history of war from a scientific, biological, anthropological and political philosophy standpoint.

[Requia ☣]

Eternal peace would be pretty boring.

The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.

Do you want to be a sheep?

No, hatred and violence aren't the problem I see, its more... sheep hate.  Hating the same people everyone else hates.  And yes, sometimes there are good reasons for this, like say, those fuckers want to kill us all, but in that case, the *other* side has to engage in sheep hate.

Edit for spelling

[Cain]

Here is a pdf of the book I mentioned, actually.  9.1 MB, downloadable from http://mihd.net/nzky9op

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Eternal peace would be pretty boring.

The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.

Do you want to be a sheep?

No, hatred and vilence aren't the problem I see, its more... sheep hate.  Hating the same people everyone else hates.  And yes, sometimes there are good reasons for this, like say, those fuckers want to kill us all, but in that case, the *other* side has to engage in sheep hate.

Sheep don't hate enough.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Eternal peace would be pretty boring.

The part of the human mind that allows for war also allows for hate, after all. Without righteous hate, we'd all be sheep.

Do you want to be a sheep?

No, hatred and vilence aren't the problem I see, its more... sheep hate.  Hating the same people everyone else hates.  And yes, sometimes there are good reasons for this, like say, those fuckers want to kill us all, but in that case, the *other* side has to engage in sheep hate.

Sheep don't hate enough.

Exactly! They always let someone tell them where to direct their hate, but they almost never take any initiative, the lazy bastards.

[Requia ☣]

So... apparently the solution to partial world peace is for people to hate *more*?