What do you REALLY believe?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

THIS.

Discordianism would be a lot more useful if we didn't keep attracting adults that believe in magic and fairies and shit.

why?

Also, the barstool doesn't argue against magic, I already said I believe in barstools, and the two people clobbered by one in the parable are using scientific discoveries to mentally wank each other into believing the barstool doesn't exist.  A good example of science not working.

Whether you believe in fairies or not, santa claus or not, God or not, quantum physics or not, or whatever, the barstool to your head is going to hurt.  The explanation as to exactly why it hurts the amount that it does, whether that has to do with force mass and acceleration, the chi flow in your nose, or magical pain aliens from the nth dimension is completely irrelevent in that particular instance.

If your beliefs are solid, and Gods, fairies, and magic aren't possibilities I think you are denying yourself all sorts of possibilities.  Sure, I could choose to live in your world, where the experiences I have had are a product of mental derangement on my part, but it looks like way less fun than the world that I live in.  If choosing to live in the world you are going to enjoy most isn't part of being Discordian then I suppose I must be badly misunderstanding it and am apparently doing it wrong.

I'm not saying that believing in a different paradigm solves all my problems, I have problems, but they tend to be ones that are in some way entertaining for me, and the solutions i find to them are also usually entertaining.

Okay, BH just went on the "don't bother reading" list.  I could get this sort of crap from Scientology.

[Chairman Risus]

THIS.

Discordianism would be a lot more useful if we didn't keep attracting adults that believe in magic and fairies and shit.

why?

Also, the barstool doesn't argue against magic, I already said I believe in barstools, and the two people clobbered by one in the parable are using scientific discoveries to mentally wank each other into believing the barstool doesn't exist.  A good example of science not working.

Whether you believe in fairies or not, santa claus or not, God or not, quantum physics or not, or whatever, the barstool to your head is going to hurt.  The explanation as to exactly why it hurts the amount that it does, whether that has to do with force mass and acceleration, the chi flow in your nose, or magical pain aliens from the nth dimension is completely irrelevent in that particular instance.

If your beliefs are solid, and Gods, fairies, and magic aren't possibilities I think you are denying yourself all sorts of possibilities.  Sure, I could choose to live in your world, where the experiences I have had are a product of mental derangement on my part, but it looks like way less fun than the world that I live in.  If choosing to live in the world you are going to enjoy most isn't part of being Discordian then I suppose I must be badly misunderstanding it and am apparently doing it wrong.

I'm not saying that believing in a different paradigm solves all my problems, I have problems, but they tend to be ones that are in some way entertaining for me, and the solutions i find to them are also usually entertaining.

Okay, BH just went on the "don't bother reading" list.  I could get this sort of crap from Scientology.

Probably, but this way you get it for free.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

 

Never give a sword to a man who can't dance. Never give a wand to a man that can't deal with reality.  - Peter Carroll

[Cramulus]

I think this is getting a little out of hand. BH is not trying to reject all science. I think he's (she's?) stating that some beliefs are more useful at different times than others. I don't have any issue with that.

I think some people are forgetting that science is not how the universe works. It is a model of how the universe works. You can cast aside that model and still live in a universe where things fall at a constant rate or whatever. You just don't describe the rate of falling using the same language. That doesn't make you wrong.



Also, I think the Barstool metaphor is being used incorrectly. The lesson of that story is, "Just because you believe in crazy shit, it doesn't change how the universe fundamentally operates."

Intelligent people who practice madgliguqte understand this. They know that they are monkeying around in their head to alter how they interface with the universe. Most occultists know that they can't shoot lightning bolts - reminding them that the universe has a rather unyielding material nature isn't an argument against the majority of occult practices.

The Barstool metaphor (to me) is an argument against belief systems which poorly describe reality -- like the Breatharians who think they can get all their daily nutrients from proper breathing techniques. A rational person who prays, tosses a penny into a wishing well, or carries a magical fetish to make him more attractive is not living in a total fantasy world. As opposed to the guy in the barstool story who thinks the universe is intangible, and finds out he's 100% dead wrong.

[Cain]

A rational person who prays, tosses a penny into a wishing well, or carries a magical fetish to make him more attractive is not living in a total fantasy world.

Technically speaking, they are, it just happens to be harmless, limited and socially acceptable.

Also, rolling golden apples ftw

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think this is getting a little out of hand. BH is not trying to reject all science. I think he's (she's?) stating that some beliefs are more useful at different times than others. I don't have any issue with that.

I think some people are forgetting that science is not how the universe works. It is a model of how the universe works. You can cast aside that model and still live in a universe where things fall at a constant rate or whatever. You just don't describe the rate of falling using the same language. That doesn't make you wrong.



Also, I think the Barstool metaphor is being used incorrectly. The lesson of that story is, "Just because you believe in crazy shit, it doesn't change how the universe fundamentally operates."

Intelligent people who practice madgliguqte understand this. They know that they are monkeying around in their head to alter how they interface with the universe. Most occultists know that they can't shoot lightning bolts - reminding them that the universe has a rather unyielding material nature isn't an argument against the majority of occult practices.

The Barstool metaphor (to me) is an argument against belief systems which poorly describe reality -- like the Breatharians who think they can get all their daily nutrients from proper breathing techniques. A rational person who prays, tosses a penny into a wishing well, or carries a magical fetish to make him more attractive is not living in a total fantasy world. As opposed to the guy in the barstool story who thinks the universe is intangible, and finds out he's 100% dead wrong.

I find there are people in the occult that believe in crazy shit. Generally speaking though, they appear to have little to show for their actions. I find there are also rational, intelligent people in the occult world that make use of crazy shit, but don't believe in it... often they seem to have a lot going on and are somewhat in control of their lives. Then I find there are a lot of people that just hear some of the crazies and think they can pontificate on the subject. 

[Cramulus]

A rational person who prays, tosses a penny into a wishing well, or carries a magical fetish to make him more attractive is not living in a total fantasy world.

Technically speaking, they are, it just happens to be harmless, limited and socially acceptable.

to be fair then, they're only living in a partial fantasy world, and I have yet to meet a live human being which isn't.


I am reacting against the vibe ITT that anything but a dogmatic adherence to scientific materialism is braindead fairy-wank. All people mix and match their belief systems. Most people interface with reality just fine even if they have a few weird beliefs.

For example I talk to my cat all the time. I pretend she can understand me but just ignores me. Yes, that is magical thinking. But it keeps me company.

[Triple Zero]

I find there are people in the occult that believe in crazy shit. Generally speaking though, they appear to have little to show for their actions. I find there are also rational, intelligent people in the occult world that make use of crazy shit, but don't believe in it... often they seem to have a lot going on and are somewhat in control of their lives.

how do they make use of it (while not believing in it)?

I mean, I suppose you aren't just talking about selling rocks at high profit to the crazies.

[Cainad (dec.)]

To clarify my position, I don't adhere to scientific materialism or logical positivism or whatever. I just like talking shit with people who think the confirmation bias is an example of something really working for realz.

[LMNO]

Cram: Technically, if you like talking to your cat even though you know she can't understand you, that's not magical thinking.  That's playing pretend.  You are still admitting you exist in a universe of scientific materialism.  Magical thinking would be believing that your cat understands what you are saying, and responds.


Similarly, someone who uses magic as psychological tools to change their perceptions and somatic responses also are living in a scientifically materialistic universe, with an understanding of neurochemistry and psychology.  It's the fuckers who channel Moon Energy and talks to Dragons you have to watch out for.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I find there are people in the occult that believe in crazy shit. Generally speaking though, they appear to have little to show for their actions. I find there are also rational, intelligent people in the occult world that make use of crazy shit, but don't believe in it... often they seem to have a lot going on and are somewhat in control of their lives.

how do they make use of it (while not believing in it)?

Just because something is useful, doesn't mean its true. Crowley stated several times that he held no absolute belief in anything he did. Rather he felt the only possibly honest position was Spencerian agnosticism. IE, "we can't know, we don't know, we never will know... but by god some of this 'magic' stuff is pretty damned useful."

It seems to me that some people think the 'honest' view is a stark IS/IS NOT dichotemy between this view or that view. Personally, I find that any view, if its useful... is useful. Science is useful, I go to the doctor when I'm sick. Magic is useful, I've had some very successful experiences which have positively affected my life. To claim that one is true and one is false seems stupid. Both are useful, both are models based on observations. Both use symbols and semantics to try to communicate ideas. Both can be easily misunderstood by those that don't bother to grok the symbols and semantics of that specific model.

Belief doesn't enter into it.

[Cramulus]

in answer to LMNO and Zip:

one's beliefs aren't set in stone. I can talk to my cat and believe she understands me, and in this post explain it from another perspective.

peter carroll talks about how good magicians are able to move fluidly between different models.

Like there's energy model, where all magic is basically manipulating energy
the spiritual model, where all magic is basically dealing with spirits
or the psychological model, where all magic is basically a headgame you're playing with yourself

you can embrace one model today, then another one tomorrow. Bring the right tool for the right job.

you can drop the psychological model now and then without becoming a total moonbat.

Like in times of mourning, it's more comfortable to live in a spiritual universe than a materialist universe for a while. I hold that this is how people operate normally, but it gets confused when we discuss our beliefs in this sort of rigid Aristotelian fashion.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

in answer to LMNO and Zip:

one's beliefs aren't set in stone. I can talk to my cat and believe she understands me, and in this post explain it from another perspective.

peter carroll talks about how good magicians are able to move fluidly between different models.

Like there's energy model, where all magic is basically manipulating energy
the spiritual model, where all magic is basically dealing with spirits
or the psychological model, where all magic is basically a headgame you're playing with yourself

you can embrace one model today, then another one tomorrow. Bring the right tool for the right job.

you can drop the psychological model now and then without becoming a total moonbat.

Like in times of mourning, it's more comfortable to live in a spiritual universe than a materialist universe for a while. I hold that this is how people operate normally, but it gets confused when we discuss our beliefs in this sort of rigid Aristotelian fashion.

[fomenter]

I think this is getting a little out of hand. BH is not trying to reject all science. I think he's (she's?) stating that some beliefs are more useful at different times than others. I don't have any issue with that.

I think some people are forgetting that science is not how the universe works. It is a model of how the universe works. You can cast aside that model and still live in a universe where things fall at a constant rate or whatever. You just don't describe the rate of falling using the same language. That doesn't make you wrong.



Also, I think the Barstool metaphor is being used incorrectly. The lesson of that story is, "Just because you believe in crazy shit, it doesn't change how the universe fundamentally operates."

Intelligent people who practice madgliguqte understand this. They know that they are monkeying around in their head to alter how they interface with the universe. Most occultists know that they can't shoot lightning bolts - reminding them that the universe has a rather unyielding material nature isn't an argument against the majority of occult practices.

The Barstool metaphor (to me) is an argument against belief systems which poorly describe reality -- like the Breatharians who think they can get all their daily nutrients from proper breathing techniques. A rational person who prays, tosses a penny into a wishing well, or carries a magical fetish to make him more attractive is not living in a total fantasy world. As opposed to the guy in the barstool story who thinks the universe is intangible, and finds out he's 100% dead wrong.

i don't think we are rejecting the view of science  being a model or magic as a useful device for self transformation i thought we were having a little fun at this guys expense because of his mixing things up an using the term real to describe magic and it works to describe a law of 5s observation..

[LMNO]

But aren't you actually embracing a higher-order understanding of universe?

Sure, switching models to accomodate the shit that gets thrown at you is a useful skill, and is one of the main points of a lot of the RAW non-fiction.

But in order to switch models swiftly and effectively, you have to realize that they are models within a universe that allows model-switching.  If you believe you exist in a universe that allows you to believe that the One True God is YHWH on Monday, and believe the One True God is Posidon on Wednesday, then you pretty much have to accept that you actually live in a universe of a completely different nature than either of the ones you believe in.


If you allow a visual:




That is to say, when you "step back" to explain and understand the model you were using, you need to explain it from a Scientific Materialist Universe.