So, the economist and time agree: It's about fucking time to LEGALISE IT

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I agree with Roger...

OH GODS!!!!!! THE LASORS! THEY BURN!!!

[East Coast Hustle]

We are currently in "A".

"A" sucks.  It contains an authoritarian government, a large percentage of disenfranchised, uneducated, self-destructive youths with little to no means of recourse if they get addicted to drugs; it also contains heavy-handed drug laws that are disproportionatly skewed to punish the lower economic classes, and a repressive social attitude towards the chemically dependent.

The "B" expressed by most people in this thread is a place where all children are raised to respect themselves, and to understand the personal medical, physical, and moral repercussions regarding their choice to use drugs, which the newly elected "Sunshine and Lollipops" political party have legalized, ending the War on Drugs, instead putting the money into education and welfare programs.

not at all, at least from my point of view.

my contention is that regardless of how fucked the reality of the situation is, legislatively protecting people from themselves through laws of prohibition is never justified. period.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

We are currently in "A".

"A" sucks.  It contains an authoritarian government, a large percentage of disenfranchised, uneducated, self-destructive youths with little to no means of recourse if they get addicted to drugs; it also contains heavy-handed drug laws that are disproportionatly skewed to punish the lower economic classes, and a repressive social attitude towards the chemically dependent.

The "B" expressed by most people in this thread is a place where all children are raised to respect themselves, and to understand the personal medical, physical, and moral repercussions regarding their choice to use drugs, which the newly elected "Sunshine and Lollipops" political party have legalized, ending the War on Drugs, instead putting the money into education and welfare programs.

not at all, at least from my point of view.

my contention is that regardless of how fucked the reality of the situation is, legislatively protecting people from themselves through laws of prohibition is never justified. period.

How about protecting 3rd parties?  I mean, I'm not entirely sure I want PCP freaks running around in public, know what I mean?

[Cain]

PCP parlours.

Strap down and get crazy.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

PCP parlours.

Strap down and get crazy.

I was just thinking something along the lines of rubber rooms for rent.

[LMNO]

Strap down and get crazy.

I think I should make this my new catchphrase.

[East Coast Hustle]

We are currently in "A".

"A" sucks.  It contains an authoritarian government, a large percentage of disenfranchised, uneducated, self-destructive youths with little to no means of recourse if they get addicted to drugs; it also contains heavy-handed drug laws that are disproportionatly skewed to punish the lower economic classes, and a repressive social attitude towards the chemically dependent.

The "B" expressed by most people in this thread is a place where all children are raised to respect themselves, and to understand the personal medical, physical, and moral repercussions regarding their choice to use drugs, which the newly elected "Sunshine and Lollipops" political party have legalized, ending the War on Drugs, instead putting the money into education and welfare programs.

not at all, at least from my point of view.

my contention is that regardless of how fucked the reality of the situation is, legislatively protecting people from themselves through laws of prohibition is never justified. period.

How about protecting 3rd parties?  I mean, I'm not entirely sure I want PCP freaks running around in public, know what I mean?

yeah, and as soon as they assault someone or rob someone or murder someone or break someone else's shit, there are laws to deal with that.

there is really no reason for the possession or consumption of a substance, in and of itself, to be a criminal act.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It seems to me that there are many ways to find a sane path between the current FAILED system of prohibition and PCP Freaks running through the streets like so many bulls in Pampalona. Not ones that require a utopia where every monkey doesn't act like a monkey, nor ones that require anyone taking a toke to go get a psych eval.

For some drugs, some kind of restrictions are probably required... not necessarily blanket prohibition, but restrictions about where one can take the drug seem reasonable in some cases (PCP), decriminalization of some drugs might be the best option (LSD for example) and for some drugs like pot... any restrictions greater than those already in place for alcohol and tobacco seems entirely absurd.

However, that doesn't mean we can't debate the issue or look for a B option that is neither Utopian nor authoritarian. If we can debate changing the definition of marriage, if we can debate federally funded health care, then debating the drug war seems like a no-brainer... same-sex marriage and national health care are more socially contentious these days than buying a dime bag.

And as RCH points out... IF a person  breaks the law, then they are a person that broke the law... drugs or no drugs.

[AFK]

I'd like to give RWHN some credit; as far as I know he's the only person on this board who works with chemically dependent and at-risk youths.  Because of this, he has very different experiences and opinions about drugs, and has seen far more cases and data regarding their use and effects.

While in my personal experience I have seen people react to drugs in both positive an negative ways, my sample size is extremely small.  Even if I can relate the personal drug histories of 100 people, that's still far too small to be accurate.  That's why anectdotal evidence is generally considered bullshit.

I understand that due to his job, he sees far more negative cases than positive ones; but the point is that these "negative" cases are still fucking humans.  They aren't statistics, and they sure as fuck aren't "acceptable losses" so you can get high whenever you want to.  

You can argue about how "society" is screwed up, and if we ended the War on Drugs and we all were taught and teach "responsibility" to each other, we could eliminate drug abuse and addiction.  And if you believe that world will ever exist, then you probably believe in the model that all people make rational decisions when faced with economic decisions.

RWHN is dealing with the situation as it is, not as what it might be if all of humanity had their IQ, Empathy, Will Power, and Self Respect boosted a hundredfold overnight.  In our current culture, and for the forseeable future, huge swaths of kids are doing damage to themselves which may turn out to be permanent.  RWHN has done all he can to help them.

What the fuck have any of you done?

Thanks.  And I just want to repeat what I've said several times now.  I DO think there are injustices carried out in the name of combating substance abuse.  Certainly a guy caught with a joint shouldn't be doing time in jail.  People who get in trouble with the law with personal amounts of substances should be hooked up with help, not jail.  And the thing is, we can address that and HAVE been addressing that.  Drug courts are one of those mechanisms.  Fuck, I sit on a committee, headed up by a Sgt in the State Police that is looking for alternatives for dealing with out of control kids.  Yeah, that's law enforcement heading this up.  And nowhere on the list of alternatives are we talking about incarceration.  We are talking about hooking them up with the resources they need to get help and to get clean.  I just sincerely don't see how legalization does anything to fix anything other than make it easier for adults to enjoy their marijuana without harrassment.  And that's fine and dandy if you can magically take kids out of the equation.  But you can't.  Nevermind that more adults will have marijuana making it more available.  You'll have more adults setting examples for their kids.  Parental modeling is already a huge issue in substance abuse.  Legalizing will only serve to further validate the behavior for children as parents are more free to light up. 

[AFK]

I respect RWHN. I'm not saying people who have problems are "acceptable casualties." I'm saying the problem is overstated and illegal weed hurts more than it helps.

Show me the proof. 

For example, I self-medicate with pot. It gets rid of many problems I have almost completely -- and it's not just the high. That wears off in an hour or two, the stabilizing effects last me a good 3 days. Oh, I've tried doctor prescribed drugs, believe me, they don't do shit for me -- in fact, all of them so far just make it worse. And to go without? Kai can tell you what I get like when under stress without any medication, illegal or otherwise. It's not pretty.

To be fair, when I started pot, all my life's problems sort of worked together to push me into a hole where I was drug-dealing to eat and in a truly bad mental state. But here's the important thing -- normally, I would have left that go. I'm a passive person, when shit goes wrong I'm more likely to bear it than try to change it. In this case I fought my way up, and I'm now literally on the doorstep of fulfilling a lifelong dream with game development (thanks to all the PD people helping me do this!). I have actual friends in real life, something I have literally never had before. And consider that if I got busted now, I'd be in jail. I'm literally caught in a decision between living the cliche of basement-dwelling social outcast in a shitty victim "There's nothing I can do" mindset or risking every day going to jail.

Am I an acceptable casualty, LMNO?

So you should be advocating for the ability to have medical marijuana in your state.  That is decidedly different than legalization.  I'm not 100% on board with the medical marijuana thing, but I'm much more open to that than I am legalizing it for everyone.  Or move to Maine where we just had a vote to expand the ability to use medical marijuana. 

[Cait M. R.]

I respect RWHN. I'm not saying people who have problems are "acceptable casualties." I'm saying the problem is overstated and illegal weed hurts more than it helps.

Show me the proof. 

For example, I self-medicate with pot. It gets rid of many problems I have almost completely -- and it's not just the high. That wears off in an hour or two, the stabilizing effects last me a good 3 days. Oh, I've tried doctor prescribed drugs, believe me, they don't do shit for me -- in fact, all of them so far just make it worse. And to go without? Kai can tell you what I get like when under stress without any medication, illegal or otherwise. It's not pretty.

To be fair, when I started pot, all my life's problems sort of worked together to push me into a hole where I was drug-dealing to eat and in a truly bad mental state. But here's the important thing -- normally, I would have left that go. I'm a passive person, when shit goes wrong I'm more likely to bear it than try to change it. In this case I fought my way up, and I'm now literally on the doorstep of fulfilling a lifelong dream with game development (thanks to all the PD people helping me do this!). I have actual friends in real life, something I have literally never had before. And consider that if I got busted now, I'd be in jail. I'm literally caught in a decision between living the cliche of basement-dwelling social outcast in a shitty victim "There's nothing I can do" mindset or risking every day going to jail.

Am I an acceptable casualty, LMNO?

So you should be advocating for the ability to have medical marijuana in your state.  That is decidedly different than legalization.  I'm not 100% on board with the medical marijuana thing, but I'm much more open to that than I am legalizing it for everyone.  Or move to Maine where we just had a vote to expand the ability to use medical marijuana. 

Luckily, it looks like medical marijuana is going to be legalized here -- but not for psychiatric reasons, which is why I use it. I highly doubt it'll ever be legal for psychiatric reasons unless it's completely legalized, considering what I read about the medical marijuana laws and etc.

[AFK]

not as what it might be if all of humanity had their IQ, Empathy, Will Power, and Self Respect boosted a hundredfold overnight.  In our current culture, and for the forseeable future, huge swaths of kids are doing damage to themselves which may turn out to be permanent.  RWHN has done all he can to help them.

I don't think I argued that at all.

People are dumb, they do dumb things. Kids are dumb they do dumb things. I don't ever see that changing.

The current drug policy is dumb it wastes money, puts people in jail, creates a black market, funds criminal activity and IT IS STILL EASY FOR KIDS TO GET DRUGS. The government's official position is to lie if the truth doesn't support the policy. The policy was originally based on lies and prejudice, particularly around pot.

Please provide evidence that shows where the government expressly mandates ALL gov't employees lie about and make up information about drugs.  Do you know how many governmental entities deal with substance abuse?  Are they all in on this deal?  Can you prove that?  

I don't believe that people are going to become More Responsible but I fail to see what the fuck that has to do with stupid laws that are based on stupid lies. Stupid laws are bad/wrong because they are stupid laws. Most evidence available in areas where prohibition was relaxed indicate that people do not turn into drug laden zombies, wandering through a desolated city seeking the Next Big Hit.

There is mixed evidence however.  I'd post some information about how marijuana use amongst young adults went up in the Netherlands after it became available at coffee shops,etc. but it comes from the ONDCP so I know you'll just ignore it.  They obviously just lied about those figures.  

[East Coast Hustle]

you still haven't addressed Portugal. their kids are doing less drugs now. What to make of that?

[East Coast Hustle]

Also, it seems that the basic bone of contention between RWHN and myself and/or Rat is that RWHN seems to be taking the position that the need to keep adolescents from fucking up their development with recreational drug use trumps the need of adults to be able to make their own choices and not be persecuted/prosecuted for them until they have a direct negative impact on the lives of others whereas rat and I seem to be taking the position that while adolescent drug use is unfortunate and should be actively discouraged by any reasonable means, it's not a justification for blanket prohibition that criminalizes the recreational behavior of adults.

To borrow from your playbook, but neither of you have kids so perhaps you don't have the proper experiential background to judge whether it is justified or not.   

I understand what you're getting at, but it's a false analogy. My lack of having children means I am lacking an insight into the physiology of children, but I'm not arguing that drugs are good for kids.

[AFK]

000, it's fine to try.  Striving to make the world a better place is great.

But again, RWHN is the only person dealing with what's happening right now.

Yes, but I don't think we were exclusively talking about what RWHN is doing, were we? I mean, not everything is related to RWHN's job? (if only for the fact that he focuses on Maine, USA)

You might not have been; I was.  Every time he talks about his job, he gets jumped on by the rest of the board with spurious and utopian objections, which ignore what he actually does, the reasons why he does it, and the information he has gathered in the process.

My biggest beef is people not recognizing and acknowledging the difference between the discussions I have here on pd.com and what I do professionally.  As a professional, if I am not sure about a source of information, no, I don't repeat it in a public venue.  For example my speculation about hydroponics and chemicals.  Since this is something I'm not super familiar with, yeah, I'll think out loud about it here, but I'm NOT going to do that in front of a bunch of kids.  I know better than that.  Now, I can't do anything about Rat and RCH who seem to have determined any data that come's anywhere near the Federal Government is null and void.  Even though a lot of this data is actually collected by non-gov't entities, and the gov't simply puts it together and presents it.  Nevermind the fact there are a lot of honest scientists, statisticians, etc., in these governmental agencies who do follow the evidence, and not concoct it as is being charged.  I mean, when you collect data through surveys, the data is the data.  It says what it says.  Just because some gov't employee is in charge of administering the survey doesn't automatically taint it into obscurity.  

I don't care if people agree with me or not.  Obviously on a site like this I expect a majority to not agree with me.  But what really rubs me the wrong way is being challenged on my professionalism and validity as a social scientist.  I know my responsibility to the kids in Maine and I take that responsibility pretty damned seriously.  I am not out to mislead and brainwash these kids.  I am out to be just one tiny force that hopefully can open their eyes to the consequences of the choices they make and how that will impact their future.