A rant : Magic (possibly Spirituality to)

[Hangshai]

ok, I just did a little more looking in to it and I think I get it now.  Cathexis is a very good example, Kai, you were right.  It is also mentioned in some of the stuff I found that it is associated with psychic energy (more the energy of thought than reading minds and moving stuff around and crap like that, though), or mental energy.  Yeah, I can jive with that.  But could you consider something like a meme magic?  A thought that actually influences the thinker, rather than a thought you just observe and file away.  I dont know if that totally makes sense, but, sometimes, when i see some of the stuff around this forum(or in stuff like intermittens), it really can give me a head-change.

[Bu🤠ns]

This is interesting.  

I like how you mentioned the tie in to art too, Kai.

Also Jung's interpretation of a mandala as "..a representation of the unconscious self" seems like it's designed to generate a specific kind of cathexis.  

Oh, DEFINITELY. Objects can be created to generate cathexis (like icons) of a certain type. I think it's interesting that there is this whole genre of phenomena of many different kinds and associations which is overall the same sort of thing at base. Those who believe stronly in magic will dismiss cathexis as scientific reductionism, and the atheistic materialists will dismiss it as vestiges of  superstition, only of passing interest, just like pareidolia, chi and every other artifact of consciousness. So it goes.

Seems like more one's aware of the cathexis process, the deeper the self awareness. At least with the things that a person considers really real and significant in life.

[Kai]

Your definition of magic is too broad.

Science is NOT magic.

No, it's quantums and stuff.

I'm starting to think you have it in for LMNO.

[Kai]

ok, I just did a little more looking in to it and I think I get it now.  Cathexis is a very good example, Kai, you were right.  It is also mentioned in some of the stuff I found that it is associated with psychic energy (more the energy of thought than reading minds and moving stuff around and crap like that, though), or mental energy.  Yeah, I can jive with that.  But could you consider something like a meme magic?  A thought that actually influences the thinker, rather than a thought you just observe and file away.  I dont know if that totally makes sense, but, sometimes, when i see some of the stuff around this forum(or in stuff like intermittens), it really can give me a head-change.

I'm not sure about memes (a whole other can of worms). The meme would have to take on a life and power that is more than the meaning of the words essentially.

[Kai]

This is interesting.  

I like how you mentioned the tie in to art too, Kai.

Also Jung's interpretation of a mandala as "..a representation of the unconscious self" seems like it's designed to generate a specific kind of cathexis.  

Oh, DEFINITELY. Objects can be created to generate cathexis (like icons) of a certain type. I think it's interesting that there is this whole genre of phenomena of many different kinds and associations which is overall the same sort of thing at base. Those who believe stronly in magic will dismiss cathexis as scientific reductionism, and the atheistic materialists will dismiss it as vestiges of  superstition, only of passing interest, just like pareidolia, chi and every other artifact of consciousness. So it goes.

Seems like more one's aware of the cathexis process, the deeper the self awareness. At least with the things that a person considers really real and significant in life.

Shit. I am /really/ gonna have to write this letter in the morning.

[Template]

Art of Memetics mentions magic towards the start, as I recall.

[singer]

I'm not sure about memes (a whole other can of worms). The meme would have to take on a life and power that is more than the meaning of the words essentially.

I think that pretty much happened all over the '60s.  The generational rift was so intense that one generation's apparently innocuous memes would actually spark violent reactions from the other.

[LMNO]

I'm not sure how "cathexis" is different from "symbolism".


Also, @ TGRR: magic is quantum and stuff, because if I observe it, it doesn't exist.

[Template]

If your cathexis doesn't make sense to anyone else, you might still be doing it right.  Also, the object can represent something that isn't believed to exist otherwise.  Symbolism: puppet represents man.  Cathexis: the puppet is an entity; an extra layer of disbelief is suspended to treat the puppet like he's a human actor, or the character he plays.

[Hangshai]

LMNO, the difference I see is that Symbolism is of the mind, how you the thinker store and recall info using symbols and what they mean, when cathexis is actually putting your 'thought energy' into something, and im not sure quite how this works, but I think it may be more of a repressed unintentional thing.  The example I got from what I read was the steam engine.  Freud's theory (this is the wiki now, not me) was that the steam engine was only produced when it was because of the sexual repression that was happening at the time, Im sure youve heard that before.  Well, the idea that the steam engine REPRESENTS the repressed sexuality is the symbolism, the idea of BUILDING a steam engine, or whatever, is cathexis.  I think.  The whole process of repressing and then having it come out, but not in a cathartic way(having sex, I would imagine), but directing it another way.  Actually the more I think about all this, the more it TOTALLY jives with stuff like Mo Pai and Tai Chi and shit like that..   

or somethng... 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

ok, I just did a little more looking in to it and I think I get it now.  Cathexis is a very good example, Kai, you were right.  It is also mentioned in some of the stuff I found that it is associated with psychic energy (more the energy of thought than reading minds and moving stuff around and crap like that, though), or mental energy.  Yeah, I can jive with that.  But could you consider something like a meme magic?  A thought that actually influences the thinker, rather than a thought you just observe and file away.  I dont know if that totally makes sense, but, sometimes, when i see some of the stuff around this forum(or in stuff like intermittens), it really can give me a head-change.

I'm not sure about memes (a whole other can of worms). The meme would have to take on a life and power that is more than the meaning of the words essentially.

There are quite a few schools of memetic magic these days, particularly for people that were already interested in NLP. Cathexis has a lot of similarities to "memetic entities" at this point... just a matter new symbols in new models

[Template]

Well said.
Seems there's something to this "cathexis," since I didn't see any one-word translations of the word.

[Epimetheus]

I like Crowley's definition and Moore's definition, and I think they're basically the same. Saying "magic" for me is just giving a different name to simple and explicable processes. I guess it can be unexplainable events too, but I ain't seen none of those.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I like Crowley's definition and Moore's definition, and I think they're basically the same. Saying "magic" for me is just giving a different name to simple and explicable processes. I guess it can be unexplainable events too, but I ain't seen none of those.

Well, simple and explainable in some sense... They seem mostly like alternate models, that is, we can describe the phenomena in words/symbols that are not "magical". The book "Mind Hacks" is a great example of this. However, I think its important to consider the usability of these different models. One of the key bits of value which 'magical systems' seem to rely on is the psychological links between the symbols and the ideas... Peter Carroll lays it out as a formula:

Magic = GL (1-R)(1-A)

Magic= The desired effect
G = Level of Gnosis, level of Conscious distraction
L = Magical Link (Psychological linkl, semantic relationship between object and mental concept)
R = Subconscious Resistance (difficulty of dropping the new "program" into your subconscious)
A = Conscious Awareness, Psychic Censor (The bit of your brain that says "Hey this Magic stuff is Bunk!")

Conscious Distraction balances out the Conscious Awareness;
Conscious Distraction may be High Ritual, running tarot cards, I Ching, deep meditation, nonstop laughter for minutes on end, autoerotic stimulation... etc etc... AKA stuff to distract your conscious mind from the goal.

The Magical Link balances out the Subconscious Resistance;
Some physical object, athame, pentacle, chalice, sigil, etc represents a psychological "handle". Using the symbolic object we hope to inject the goal into the subconscious.

The down side to books like Mind Hacks is that they do a great job of discussing the "why" your brain can do X... but they don't have the symbols, the semantics and the processes by which you can do an end run past your conscious and subconscious in order to reprogram your robot

The secret of Magic is not about throwing fireballs or astral projection or seeing the future... its all about brain change, both as self mindfucks and mindfucking others. Crowley, Carroll, Moore, Hine, Farber, Regardie etc etc all seem to agree on that point. The problem that most modern practitioners have is that rather than reading these guys with an eye to symbolism, they read the stuff literally... confusing the Map and the Territory as it were.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Then why call it magic?  "Mind Hacks" works better.