A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

I offer a hypothetical scenario. A group of people are in a social situation, and someone says something that is sexist, racist, homophobic yada yada. Imagine this group is a bunch of white guys, and it's a rape joke or similar mysogynistic bullshit, some flippant assed comment on a person of colour, or a non-hetero person.

So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are. They may claim that they don't actually believe the shit they are saying, or "I was just being ironic" or some lame assed crap, but they need to be reminded that although they may not believe it, some wankers MIGHT. And by telling their shitty joke, laughing at it, or not rebuking someone, you are telling them that this shit is okay. It's a pretty dickish move. I think it is especially important to do this if you are a straight man, a white man or someone who isn't usually shat on by this behaviour, cos the wimmens, the POC and teh Gheys need allies in the War Against Bullshit.

Now, I realise that in some places, like work, that calling people out on their crap may not be the best thing to do on a personal level, especially if it doesn't relate directly to you/a colleague, and in a recession where your ass might get fired and another job might be not forthcoming. We all have to eat, pay bills, keep ourselves housed and clothed. It would be fucking awesome if we could speak up and not jeopardise our livelihoods, or personal safety, but if you are broke or in hospital or dead, you aren't much use to the practice of Calling People On Their Bullshit.

In a social situation, however the stakes aren't anywhere near as high.  All you have to lose is a douchenozzle, and we could all stand to have less of them in our lives. If you don't lose someone, and they start to, heaven forbid, THINK BEFORE THEY SPEAK or start calling people on their crap, well, you have just done the world a solid. If you do this, I wont salute you, or buy you a drink (unless you did it with Style and Wit, then I'll buy you a drink for being a Glorious Faggot) cos you have merely been a decent biped, and by rights, this should be your default setting.

OR FUCKING KILL ME.

[LMNO]

You don't even have to yell. A simple "excuse me?" or even a raised eyebrow works.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

You don't even have to yell. A simple "excuse me?" or even a raised eyebrow works.

I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Pat, the other guitarist is a very blue collar guy. Dropped out of high school and started working for his father at the autobody shop that the band practiced in until he got married and bought a house. Well we were exposed to a lot of blue collar irish guys and one time this guy from county louth made a bad jewish joke. I knew he wasnt antisemitic but i rolled my eyes anyway. Someone else saw it and said "oh kevin didnt like that." at which point the joke teller asked me if i was jewish. Had him going for a good half hour during which he kept apologizing to me. Then he asked how it was possible that i was irish and jewish. Told him that if your mothers jewish youre jewish. Then when he seemed remorseful enough i let him off the hook and said "im fucking with you. I was raised catholic. I just found the joke distasteful." i mentioned this in nigels racism thread.

[Doktor Howl]

So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are.

Depends.  I stopped trying to save the world a long time ago.  I will call them on it if I feel I can ruin their night by doing so, or if I think they'll be REALLY embarrassed when they sober up the next day.

What I typically do, though, is just get up and leave without a word.  It has a similar effect to calling them on their shit, but it does so without ME having to listen to THEIR bullshit excuses and rationalizations.  It's not my job to save the world.  I just don't want to listen to the yahoos while they "fix" it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I also got villagers brother to stop using the word fag as a casual insult while we were still in a band together. He supports gay marriage so it made it even stranger. I dont know if hes relapsed since he and i arent exactly on speaking terms. Villager is invited to his wedding but i am not. My reaction to this was "great i dont have to go now. Tell him thank you"

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are.

Depends.  I stopped trying to save the world a long time ago.  I will call them on it if I feel I can ruin their night by doing so, or if I think they'll be REALLY embarrassed when they sober up the next day.

What I typically do, though, is just get up and leave without a word.  It has a similar effect to calling them on their shit, but it does so without ME having to listen to THEIR bullshit excuses and rationalizations.  It's not my job to save the world.  I just don't want to listen to the yahoos while they "fix" it.

Getting up and leaving works. It's a tactic I have used in the past, along with the "I don't like/do that sort of joke". I'm thinking your approach would stop me butting heads with people I know will just turn into bigger assholes.

I guess I'm youngish, and kinda pissy at the world. Maybe I'll learn, maybe I won't.

anyway, the basic point is to show distaste, and not just shrug it off, or be seen to acquiesce.

[Doktor Howl]

So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are.

Depends.  I stopped trying to save the world a long time ago.  I will call them on it if I feel I can ruin their night by doing so, or if I think they'll be REALLY embarrassed when they sober up the next day.

What I typically do, though, is just get up and leave without a word.  It has a similar effect to calling them on their shit, but it does so without ME having to listen to THEIR bullshit excuses and rationalizations.  It's not my job to save the world.  I just don't want to listen to the yahoos while they "fix" it.

Getting up and leaving works. It's a tactic I have used in the past, along with the "I don't like/do that sort of joke". I'm thinking your approach would stop me butting heads with people I know will just turn into bigger assholes.

I guess I'm youngish, and kinda pissy at the world. Maybe I'll learn, maybe I won't.

anyway, the basic point is to show distaste, and not just shrug it off, or be seen to acquiesce.

Oh, yeah.  If there's humor value, I'll get on their shit, or just slap the bejeezus out of them.  Mostly, though, they're tiresome bores, and I don't have time for them.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Another point is to focus on what they said rather than what they are. What they are is not the point of calling someone out, and will cause someone to get defensive.

[Doktor Howl]

Another point is to focus on what they said rather than what they are. What they are is not the point of calling someone out, and will cause someone to get defensive.

When people act like that, their reaction to my reaction is utterly irrelevant to me.

[LizKing531]

I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

I do find it udderly ironic that in this thread, you chose "retarded" as the descriptor - slurs & degredation only count as a bad move towards race & gender? 

Not trying to flame anyone - this is a serious point that's been brought up a lot around me recently. Why is "retarded" not viewed as a degrading term to most people? 

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I have a really racist uncle.

In some ways, it's easier to deal with than having a really racist grandma, because I don't have to pretend that I love him. We're not even related by blood, he's married to my eldest aunt. Usually once a year or so, he says something just appalling, as opposed to the general racist bent to his outlook on life. This year, it was using the word "monkeys" to refer to the black families that were "ruining the neighborhood." As soon as he walked out of the room, all of us turned and looked at one another, asking if that really happened and he really just said that. It's just unbelievable, no matter how many times he does it. Even his own kids can't stand it. But when it happens, I just freeze up and sit there trying to think of some way he could possibly not mean what he just said, or I misheard it, and then the moment's gone.

On top of that, there's the social awareness that although this man is a total bigoted douchenozzle, he's married to my aunt. Specifically, the aunt who if she was born today would have been diagnosed with a moderate to severe developmental disorder. And you have to wonder what would happen to her if it became clear that everyone in her family hates his racist ass. And it shouldn't be like that, and that isn't an excuse for not speaking up, but we all still fall into this trap of biting our tongues and resigning ourselves to the cold comfort that at least he's getting old and no matter what we say he's going to die a racist prick.

[Doktor Howl]

I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

I do find it udderly ironic that in this thread, you chose "retarded" as the descriptor - slurs & degredation only count as a bad move towards race & gender? 

Not trying to flame anyone - this is a serious point that's been brought up a lot around me recently. Why is "retarded" not viewed as a degrading term to most people?

Most people are dumb.

A kid with brain damage is not a retard, in the current meaning of the word.  I believe they are called developmentally delayed or some such thing.  I prefer the term "brain damage", because that's what actually happened to the poor little buggers.

A person that CAN think, but WON'T, is a retard.

[LizKing531]

I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

I do find it udderly ironic that in this thread, you chose "retarded" as the descriptor - slurs & degredation only count as a bad move towards race & gender? 

Not trying to flame anyone - this is a serious point that's been brought up a lot around me recently. Why is "retarded" not viewed as a degrading term to most people?

Most people are dumb.

A kid with brain damage is not a retard, in the current meaning of the word.  I believe they are called developmentally delayed or some such thing.  I prefer the term "brain damage", because that's what actually happened to the poor little buggers.

A person that CAN think, but WON'T, is a retard.

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

[Doktor Howl]

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

Yeah.  Take your false equivalence and fuck off.