Three Little Questions

[The Good Reverend Roger]

1.  Is de facto slavery (slavery in actual fact) any different, morally, from de jure slavery (slavery by law)?
2.  Is it ever morally permissable to benefit in any way (including enjoying lower prices and thus a higher level of purchasing power/standard of living) from slavery?
3.  If you purchase goods from other nations that used slavery to make those goods, is that morally any different from having slavery right here at home?

[Placid Dingo]

1.  Is de facto slavery (slavery in actual fact) any different, morally, from de jure slavery (slavery by law)?
2.  Is it ever morally permissable to benefit in any way (including enjoying lower prices and thus a higher level of purchasing power/standard of living) from slavery?
3.  If you purchase goods from other nations that used slavery to make those goods, is that morally any different from having slavery right here at home?

On account of 'it's midnight' I am posting to say I will think on this, and offer something semi coherent later.

[LMNO]

The simple answer to these questions is "no" to all three.



The realization that I behave as if the answer is "yes" makes me extremely uncomfortable.

[Lenin McCarthy]

1.  Is de facto slavery (slavery in actual fact) any different, morally, from de jure slavery (slavery by law)?

By law, I'm required to spend one year of my life in the Norwegian Army, and if I refuse to do so, declare myself to be a pacifist and spend a year doing volunteer work. In actual fact, I got an exemption from both of those because I wrote in their online application form that "I'm not really that keen on doing this".

2.  Is it ever morally permissable to benefit in any way (including enjoying lower prices and thus a higher level of purchasing power/standard of living) from slavery?

It's not. But since most humans alive today are either slaves, slavery profiteers or both, and slavery is such a key pillar of modern society, as long as you're part of society, it's pretty much impossible to keep out of it. If you try anyway, you risk becoming a nosy straight edge anarcho-primitivist punk who spends most of his time attacking lesser-pure fellow punks. And he gets nothing done, other than feeling holier than the rest of the world. One man's personal lifestyle crusade won't change anything.

3.  If you purchase goods from other nations that used slavery to make those goods, is that morally any different from having slavery right here at home?

No.

[EK WAFFLR]

The simple answer to these questions is "no" to all three.



The realization that I behave as if the answer is "yes" makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Pretty much this.

I've been pondering lately, how to do something about it at a personal level without becoming a survivalist nutcase.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The simple answer to these questions is "no" to all three.



The realization that I behave as if the answer is "yes" makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Which means the answer is "No, but...".

It's almost impossible to not buy something that resulted from slavery.

Doesn't mean we have to LIKE it, or BE QUIET about it.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
As long as they have the decency to SHUT UP!

[Suu]

The simple answer to these questions is "no" to all three.



The realization that I behave as if the answer is "yes" makes me extremely uncomfortable.

This.

But then, what definition of "slavery" is being used?

Is it actual, damn me for saying this, "Cotton-pickin" slavery? Or a form of mental slavery? Do we not also allow ourselves, even in a "free" country as "free" people, to become "slaves" to our jobs or our daily way of life?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The simple answer to these questions is "no" to all three.



The realization that I behave as if the answer is "yes" makes me extremely uncomfortable.

This.

But then, what definition of "slavery" is being used?

Is it actual, damn me for saying this, "Cotton-pickin" slavery? Or a form of mental slavery? Do we not also allow ourselves, even in a "free" country as "free" people, to become "slaves" to our jobs or our daily way of life?

Slavery can take 3 forms...Slavery to your own mind is YOUR problem.

1.  Chattel slavery.  You are literally bought and sold.
2.  Prison labor.  If you don't work the call center, you get no good time, effectively doubling your sentence.
3.  Wage slavery/sweatshops, where you can't quit for one or more reasons.  China's Apple plant is a good example.  TECHNICALLY you can quit, but it means immediate starvation or government sanction.  12 year olds working in a garment factory under intolerable conditions also counts.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Been poking at Lysander Spooner again?

Slavery, in any form is slavery... anytime the individual is forced to do X or not do X (within the context of their personal decisions about their personal life) it is a form of slavery, doesn't matter if the person doing the forcing is a Southern Plantation owner, a sweat shop boss or the local government.

From a moral perspective, given the above statement, it would be impossible not to benefit from slavery indirectly. To use the old stereotype... if you pay less taxes because some prisoner is making the license plates/cleaning the roads... you're benefiting from slavery. If you buy a product, even from a reputable shop... their prices are influenced by the supply provided to the market by Wal-Mart... again you're benefiting.

So I think, for me, it is ethically wrong to directly support, or benefit from slavery in any form within the confines of the society I'm struck in.

Unless I'm gonna go live in the woods, live off the land, make my own everything and become the 21st century Daniel Boone... its simply not possible. Hell, how many of the electronic components that are installed in servers/routers/computers that we're using to have this discussion exist either directly or were cheaper because of 'slavery' in one form or another?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Been poking at Lysander Spooner again?

Slavery, in any form is slavery... anytime the individual is forced to do X or not do X (within the context of their personal decisions about their personal life) it is a form of slavery, doesn't matter if the person doing the forcing is a Southern Plantation owner, a sweat shop boss or the local government.

From a moral perspective, given the above statement, it would be impossible not to benefit from slavery indirectly. To use the old stereotype... if you pay less taxes because some prisoner is making the license plates/cleaning the roads... you're benefiting from slavery. If you buy a product, even from a reputable shop... their prices are influenced by the supply provided to the market by Wal-Mart... again you're benefiting.

So I think, for me, it is ethically wrong to directly support, or benefit from slavery in any form within the confines of the society I'm struck in.

Unless I'm gonna go live in the woods, live off the land, make my own everything and become the 21st century Daniel Boone... its simply not possible. Hell, how many of the electronic components that are installed in servers/routers/computers that we're using to have this discussion exist either directly or were cheaper because of 'slavery' in one form or another?

I am not saying to walk away from civilization in some high-minded huff.  It wouldn't help the problem at all, and would serve only to encourage hipster-esque self-righteousness.

What I'm saying is that most people disapprove of slavery, but aren't actually aware that it is going on, or - if they are aware that it exists - the extent of the problem.  This is of course deliberate.

And there has to be a way to counteract that.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Been poking at Lysander Spooner again?

Slavery, in any form is slavery... anytime the individual is forced to do X or not do X (within the context of their personal decisions about their personal life) it is a form of slavery, doesn't matter if the person doing the forcing is a Southern Plantation owner, a sweat shop boss or the local government.

From a moral perspective, given the above statement, it would be impossible not to benefit from slavery indirectly. To use the old stereotype... if you pay less taxes because some prisoner is making the license plates/cleaning the roads... you're benefiting from slavery. If you buy a product, even from a reputable shop... their prices are influenced by the supply provided to the market by Wal-Mart... again you're benefiting.

So I think, for me, it is ethically wrong to directly support, or benefit from slavery in any form within the confines of the society I'm struck in.

Unless I'm gonna go live in the woods, live off the land, make my own everything and become the 21st century Daniel Boone... its simply not possible. Hell, how many of the electronic components that are installed in servers/routers/computers that we're using to have this discussion exist either directly or were cheaper because of 'slavery' in one form or another?

I am not saying to walk away from civilization in some high-minded huff.  It wouldn't help the problem at all, and would serve only to encourage hipster-esque self-righteousness.

What I'm saying is that most people disapprove of slavery, but aren't actually aware that it is going on, or - if they are aware that it exists - the extent of the problem.  This is of course deliberate.

And there has to be a way to counteract that.

Answers to the OP are FUCK NO, FUCK NO, AND FUCK NO.

Somebody asked at the amazon forum if people would be willing to pay more for goods made in the USA than China. I answered that the US and China were the same to me, I don't care where things are made and I would only pay more if I had assurance that the goods weren't made by kids, prison or sweatshop labor. I even posted a link about prison labor, guessing that these people were yahoos.

It was like the fucking post was invisible. Nobody agreed, or disagreed or asked for more info. The thread just went on; "USA! USA!"

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Been poking at Lysander Spooner again?

Slavery, in any form is slavery... anytime the individual is forced to do X or not do X (within the context of their personal decisions about their personal life) it is a form of slavery, doesn't matter if the person doing the forcing is a Southern Plantation owner, a sweat shop boss or the local government.

From a moral perspective, given the above statement, it would be impossible not to benefit from slavery indirectly. To use the old stereotype... if you pay less taxes because some prisoner is making the license plates/cleaning the roads... you're benefiting from slavery. If you buy a product, even from a reputable shop... their prices are influenced by the supply provided to the market by Wal-Mart... again you're benefiting.

So I think, for me, it is ethically wrong to directly support, or benefit from slavery in any form within the confines of the society I'm struck in.

Unless I'm gonna go live in the woods, live off the land, make my own everything and become the 21st century Daniel Boone... its simply not possible. Hell, how many of the electronic components that are installed in servers/routers/computers that we're using to have this discussion exist either directly or were cheaper because of 'slavery' in one form or another?

I am not saying to walk away from civilization in some high-minded huff.  It wouldn't help the problem at all, and would serve only to encourage hipster-esque self-righteousness.

What I'm saying is that most people disapprove of slavery, but aren't actually aware that it is going on, or - if they are aware that it exists - the extent of the problem.  This is of course deliberate.

And there has to be a way to counteract that.

Answers to the OP are FUCK NO, FUCK NO, AND FUCK NO.

Somebody asked at the amazon forum if people would be willing to pay more for goods made in the USA than China. I answered that the US and China were the same to me, I don't care where things are made and I would only pay more if I had assurance that the goods weren't made by kids, prison or sweatshop labor. I even posted a link about prison labor, guessing that these people were yahoos.

It was like the fucking post was invisible. Nobody agreed, or disagreed or asked for more info. The thread just went on; "USA! USA!"

Sounds like a communication problem.

And even if the problem is at the other end, it still means that a different method is required.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Been poking at Lysander Spooner again?

Slavery, in any form is slavery... anytime the individual is forced to do X or not do X (within the context of their personal decisions about their personal life) it is a form of slavery, doesn't matter if the person doing the forcing is a Southern Plantation owner, a sweat shop boss or the local government.

From a moral perspective, given the above statement, it would be impossible not to benefit from slavery indirectly. To use the old stereotype... if you pay less taxes because some prisoner is making the license plates/cleaning the roads... you're benefiting from slavery. If you buy a product, even from a reputable shop... their prices are influenced by the supply provided to the market by Wal-Mart... again you're benefiting.

So I think, for me, it is ethically wrong to directly support, or benefit from slavery in any form within the confines of the society I'm struck in.

Unless I'm gonna go live in the woods, live off the land, make my own everything and become the 21st century Daniel Boone... its simply not possible. Hell, how many of the electronic components that are installed in servers/routers/computers that we're using to have this discussion exist either directly or were cheaper because of 'slavery' in one form or another?

I am not saying to walk away from civilization in some high-minded huff.  It wouldn't help the problem at all, and would serve only to encourage hipster-esque self-righteousness.

Agreed 100%

What I'm saying is that most people disapprove of slavery, but aren't actually aware that it is going on, or - if they are aware that it exists - the extent of the problem.  This is of course deliberate.

And there has to be a way to counteract that.

You seem to have a pretty optimistic view. I think many people know that their clothes/electronics/shoes/etc either come from sweat shops or are cheap because sweat shops decrease the cost to the market. There are new reports about companies all the time... Motorola, Adidas, Nike, Wal-Mart... and at worst these companies get a PR hit, a dip in the stocks and then business as usual.

I think it may simply be that the average consumer is so busy dealing with their own enslavement to the system that they don't really have the bandwidth to care about someone else's enslavement... or maybe, at least, when it does not directly involve chains and whips and cotton fields or diamond mines.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You seem to have a pretty optimistic view. I think many people know that their clothes/electronics/shoes/etc either come from sweat shops or are cheap because sweat shops decrease the cost to the market. There are new reports about companies all the time... Motorola, Adidas, Nike, Wal-Mart... and at worst these companies get a PR hit, a dip in the stocks and then business as usual.

I think it may simply be that the average consumer is so busy dealing with their own enslavement to the system that they don't really have the bandwidth to care about someone else's enslavement... or maybe, at least, when it does not directly involve chains and whips and cotton fields or diamond mines.

I think it's that they just WON'T LOOK.

Should we try to make them look?  I have that Jiminy Cockroach character in my head, making me look at shit.  Shouldn't they be able to enjoy the same luxury?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

You seem to have a pretty optimistic view. I think many people know that their clothes/electronics/shoes/etc either come from sweat shops or are cheap because sweat shops decrease the cost to the market. There are new reports about companies all the time... Motorola, Adidas, Nike, Wal-Mart... and at worst these companies get a PR hit, a dip in the stocks and then business as usual.

I think it may simply be that the average consumer is so busy dealing with their own enslavement to the system that they don't really have the bandwidth to care about someone else's enslavement... or maybe, at least, when it does not directly involve chains and whips and cotton fields or diamond mines.

I think it's that they just WON'T LOOK.

Should we try to make them look?  I have that Jiminy Cockroach character in my head, making me look at shit.  Shouldn't they be able to enjoy the same luxury?

It could be useful. I still want to be optimistic