Not everyone is beautiful

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Nigel, this veers off the original point, but what about someone who has a certain genetic makeup that may or may not conform to the current social norms, but then attempts to compliment that makeup with, well, fashion?

Looking good doesn't alway have to be about bone structure or body type, it can also be about concious choices of what to wear, and how to groom yourself.

When someone says "you look good," how much is a commentary about genetics, and how much is commentary on how we present those genetics?

I don't really want to get into a discussion of the definition of beauty in this thread, which is what this is veering into... I think that's better suited for Roger's thread. But of course presentation is a tremendous part of it, which is what almost all marketing directed toward women is about. If we were thinner, looked younger, dyed our hair this color, removed all our body hair, used this lotion/makeup/hygiene product, and wore these styles, we would be beautiful according to the aesethetic standards of the dominant culture.

Regardless, not everyone has "good fashion sense". Not everyone, in fact, even cares.

[LMNO]

Agreed on both points, and will avoid going into the definition spiral.

[Epimetheus]

I didn't see it mentioned here, so:

Does beauty being an invalid measure of human value mean that a person complimented for their beauty cannot justifiably be pleased with themselves?
On the one hand, the beauty is a chance genetic mixture that has no relation to the person's value, as stated.
On the other, is there not some kind of true compliment which is NOT a value judgment in saying, "You are aesthetically pleasing to me" ? I want to make an analogy about complimenting an artwork, but of course an artwork is produced by the artist's intent and manipulations - which (ignoring surgery) does not apply...

Just some conceptual cud-chewin'.

- Ruminant, PhD.

Of course someone complimented for their beauty should feel good about it. There is a huge difference between appreciating beauty, and using beauty as the ultimate determinant of human value. Complimenting beauty is not in itself a value judgement of human worth.

I notice you specify "ultimate," implying beauty is still a determinant of human value, albeit a minor one. If this is what you mean, why would it determine any amount of human value at all? And if that is not what you mean:

But isn't accepting the praise as a personal compliment an affirmation of its place as a value judgment of oneself (excepting the case of fashion/cosmetics)? In other words, isn't the person who feels good about it feeling valuable because of their looks? (Or if that is only the fucked-up our-society way it works, what would be the intelligent reason to feel good about it?)

I really apologize if I'm repeating others' questions and beating the horpse (horse corpse)...my memory is far from perfect

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial. If "everyone is beautiful" then either you are a TOTAL FAILURE FOREVER if you don't look beautiful at this moment, or the word "beautiful" means nothing and you can never really use it in that "I like your shirt" sense.

[Epimetheus]

... beauty is a chance genetic mixture that has no relation to the person's value ...

I'm afraid that is a misconception. Although it has some underlying genetic factors, personal beauty is actually largely a cultural construct and is ultimately a (conscious or unconscious) achievement of  the individual (embedded in a social context).

I'm not calling 'meeting society's expectations' an achievement or a determiner of human value - have you not read anything in this thread? Maybe read it again.

[Epimetheus]

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial.

But a shirt is something you chose specifically to put on your body. Complimenting a shirt would be like complimenting a painting of yours. But complimenting your looks is not a praise of your skills in putting together an ensemble (again excepting fashion/cosmetics...i wonder how many times I will give this disclaimer  :P ).

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial.

But a shirt is something you chose specifically to put on your body. Complimenting a shirt would be like complimenting a painting of yours. But complimenting your looks is not a praise of your skills in putting together an ensemble (again excepting fashion/cosmetics...i wonder how many times I will give this disclaimer  :P ).

I'm talking about the mental space it resides in, not whether the two are exactly identical.

[Epimetheus]

OK.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I didn't see it mentioned here, so:

Does beauty being an invalid measure of human value mean that a person complimented for their beauty cannot justifiably be pleased with themselves?
On the one hand, the beauty is a chance genetic mixture that has no relation to the person's value, as stated.
On the other, is there not some kind of true compliment which is NOT a value judgment in saying, "You are aesthetically pleasing to me" ? I want to make an analogy about complimenting an artwork, but of course an artwork is produced by the artist's intent and manipulations - which (ignoring surgery) does not apply...

Just some conceptual cud-chewin'.

- Ruminant, PhD.

Of course someone complimented for their beauty should feel good about it. There is a huge difference between appreciating beauty, and using beauty as the ultimate determinant of human value. Complimenting beauty is not in itself a value judgement of human worth.

I notice you specify "ultimate," implying beauty is still a determinant of human value, albeit a minor one. If this is what you mean, why would it determine any amount of human value at all? And if that is not what you mean:

But isn't accepting the praise as a personal compliment an affirmation of its place as a value judgment of oneself (excepting the case of fashion/cosmetics)? In other words, isn't the person who feels good about it feeling valuable because of their looks? (Or if that is only the fucked-up our-society way it works, what would be the intelligent reason to feel good about it?)

I really apologize if I'm repeating others' questions and beating the horpse (horse corpse)...my memory is far from perfect

If human beauty had no value, significant chunks of mythology and culture would be missing entirely. "Value" is relative, of course, but there's nothing wrong with finding value in beauty. I'm not going to claim it has no value, and that's not what the thread is about.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial.

But a shirt is something you chose specifically to put on your body. Complimenting a shirt would be like complimenting a painting of yours. But complimenting your looks is not a praise of your skills in putting together an ensemble (again excepting fashion/cosmetics...i wonder how many times I will give this disclaimer  :P ).

Why are we still arguing definitions?  That's been resolved ages ago.  It doesn't MATTER why someone is "beautiful"...It is utterly irrelevant to the central point of the argument made in the OP.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial. If "everyone is beautiful" then either you are a TOTAL FAILURE FOREVER if you don't look beautiful at this moment, or the word "beautiful" means nothing and you can never really use it in that "I like your shirt" sense.

I agree with this, pretty much". "You're beautiful" is one of those things like "Your ass looks great in those jeans"... a person receiving it as a genuine compliment would justly feel pleased, affirmed in their appearance. The problem becomes when it is elevated in importance above less trivial qualities, so that people are not beautiful or who are wearing unflattering pants feel that they lack significant value, when actually they have tremendous value that has nothing to do with how they look.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial.

But a shirt is something you chose specifically to put on your body. Complimenting a shirt would be like complimenting a painting of yours. But complimenting your looks is not a praise of your skills in putting together an ensemble (again excepting fashion/cosmetics...i wonder how many times I will give this disclaimer  :P ).

Why are we still arguing definitions?  That's been resolved ages ago.  It doesn't MATTER why someone is "beautiful"...It is utterly irrelevant to the central point of the argument made in the OP.

this.

[LMNO]

Incidentally Nigel, your ass looks great in those jeans.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Incidentally Nigel, your ass looks great in those jeans.

[Epimetheus]

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial.

But a shirt is something you chose specifically to put on your body. Complimenting a shirt would be like complimenting a painting of yours. But complimenting your looks is not a praise of your skills in putting together an ensemble (again excepting fashion/cosmetics...i wonder how many times I will give this disclaimer  :P ).

Why are we still arguing definitions?  That's been resolved ages ago.  It doesn't MATTER why someone is "beautiful"...It is utterly irrelevant to the central point of the argument made in the OP.

I wasn't trying to define beauty, I was trying to question why beauty would be a determiner of value, which is related to the OP.

If human beauty had no value, significant chunks of mythology and culture would be missing entirely. "Value" is relative, of course, but there's nothing wrong with finding value in beauty. I'm not going to claim it has no value, and that's not what the thread is about.

Okay.

In my head, think the idea is that a more appropriate mental space for "you're beautiful" to occupy would be the one where "I like your shirt" lives. It's a nice thing to say (if true), makes the receiver of the compliment feel good about their current appearance, but is still pretty superficial. If "everyone is beautiful" then either you are a TOTAL FAILURE FOREVER if you don't look beautiful at this moment, or the word "beautiful" means nothing and you can never really use it in that "I like your shirt" sense.

I agree with this, pretty much". "You're beautiful" is one of those things like "Your ass looks great in those jeans"... a person receiving it as a genuine compliment would justly feel pleased, affirmed in their appearance. The problem becomes when it is elevated in importance above less trivial qualities, so that people are not beautiful or who are wearing unflattering pants feel that they lack significant value, when actually they have tremendous value that has nothing to do with how they look.

Okay fair enough, cheers