Authenticity of Approval

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

What if they sincerely think the ceremony has value for a boy/man of that age?  Is that different than if they just thought it was "neat"?

It has no cultural context for them. It's not FOR them. If they want to have a ceremony of some kind, that's one thing... heck, if they can find a rabbi who is willing to do it, there's the seal of approval right there. But if the rabbi says no, what then? Do they make it up? That's basically what happens with most Native American religious ceremonies that non-Natives perform. It's a brittle, offensive mockery, like pulling your eyes into slits and saying ching chong dow and thinking you're acting Chinese.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

That is exceedingly less interesting than I was imagining.

Also, i have a feeling this is limited to the PNW.  I have a hard time picturing New Englanders doing this.

As a New England lady I support this statement 100%

We are terrified of being nude unless there's a shower or fucking involved.

We in the Northwest love to be naked. I swear to god. Want to know how many of my friends I've seen naked? The answer is all of them. Hey guys, it's December! Let's go find something naked to do!

[LMNO]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

That is exceedingly less interesting than I was imagining.

Also, i have a feeling this is limited to the PNW.  I have a hard time picturing New Englanders doing this.

As a New England lady I support this statement 100%

We are terrified of being nude unless there's a shower or fucking involved.

Or in Suu's case, sewing.  Apparently.

[LMNO]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

That is exceedingly less interesting than I was imagining.

Also, i have a feeling this is limited to the PNW.  I have a hard time picturing New Englanders doing this.

As a New England lady I support this statement 100%

We are terrified of being nude unless there's a shower or fucking involved.

We in the Northwest love to be naked. I swear to god. Want to know how many of my friends I've seen naked? The answer is all of them. Hey guys, it's December! Let's go find something naked to do!

When I was younger, I used to get naked a lot.  As did my friends.

Now, there's a look of terror in their eyes if my hands even approach my belt buckle.


LMNO
-gravity sucks.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

See that makes sense but the distinction that seems so peculiar to me is that it's cultural appropriation only if the act taken serves no practical value.

For me, I'd say that the cultural appropriation is really about taking something 'sacred' (for lack of a better term) and claiming that thing wholesale. I mean, sweating in a tent with some steam and peyote is good fun for everyone... just don't call it a Authentic Native American Sweat Lodge if you're a non-native and have no clue what the context was is in their culture.

FTFY

TYVM Nigel.

What if they sincerely think the ceremony has value for a boy/man of that age?  Is that different than if they just thought it was "neat"?

It has no cultural context for them. It's not FOR them. If they want to have a ceremony of some kind, that's one thing... heck, if they can find a rabbi who is willing to do it, there's the seal of approval right there. But if the rabbi says no, what then? Do they make it up? That's basically what happens with most Native American religious ceremonies that non-Natives perform. It's a brittle, offensive mockery, like pulling your eyes into slits and saying ching chong dow and thinking you're acting Chinese.

Exactly. It's not like Jews have a monopoly on ceremonies for boys becoming men. Lots of cultures celebrate boys to men (we Americans just have them sing bad 90's a capella). The Turks have a special ceremony and celebration that involves dressing the boy up like this:

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

That is exceedingly less interesting than I was imagining.

Also, i have a feeling this is limited to the PNW.  I have a hard time picturing New Englanders doing this.

As a New England lady I support this statement 100%

We are terrified of being nude unless there's a shower or fucking involved.

Or in Suu's case, sewing.  Apparently.

Suu is a Holy Woman, she has incorrect values.

[hooplala]

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

See that makes sense but the distinction that seems so peculiar to me is that it's cultural appropriation only if the act taken serves no practical value.

For me, I'd say that the cultural appropriation is really about taking something 'sacred' (for lack of a better term) and claiming that thing wholesale. I mean, sweating in a tent with some steam and peyote is good fun for everyone... just don't call it a Authentic Native American Sweat Lodge if you're a non-native and have no clue what the context was is in their culture.

FTFY

TYVM Nigel.

What if they sincerely think the ceremony has value for a boy/man of that age?  Is that different than if they just thought it was "neat"?

It has no cultural context for them. It's not FOR them. If they want to have a ceremony of some kind, that's one thing... heck, if they can find a rabbi who is willing to do it, there's the seal of approval right there. But if the rabbi says no, what then? Do they make it up? That's basically what happens with most Native American religious ceremonies that non-Natives perform. It's a brittle, offensive mockery, like pulling your eyes into slits and saying ching chong dow and thinking you're acting Chinese.

Exactly. It's not like Jews have a monopoly on ceremonies for boys becoming men. Lots of cultures celebrate boys to men (we Americans just have them sing bad 90's a capella). The Turks have a special ceremony and celebration that involves dressing the boy up like this:

See, I want to appropriate the hell out of that.... I would look bitchin.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

See that makes sense but the distinction that seems so peculiar to me is that it's cultural appropriation only if the act taken serves no practical value.

For me, I'd say that the cultural appropriation is really about taking something 'sacred' (for lack of a better term) and claiming that thing wholesale. I mean, sweating in a tent with some steam and peyote is good fun for everyone... just don't call it a Authentic Native American Sweat Lodge if you're a non-native and have no clue what the context was is in their culture.

FTFY

TYVM Nigel.

What if they sincerely think the ceremony has value for a boy/man of that age?  Is that different than if they just thought it was "neat"?

It has no cultural context for them. It's not FOR them. If they want to have a ceremony of some kind, that's one thing... heck, if they can find a rabbi who is willing to do it, there's the seal of approval right there. But if the rabbi says no, what then? Do they make it up? That's basically what happens with most Native American religious ceremonies that non-Natives perform. It's a brittle, offensive mockery, like pulling your eyes into slits and saying ching chong dow and thinking you're acting Chinese.

Exactly. It's not like Jews have a monopoly on ceremonies for boys becoming men. Lots of cultures celebrate boys to men (we Americans just have them sing bad 90's a capella). The Turks have a special ceremony and celebration that involves dressing the boy up like this:

See, I want to appropriate the hell out of that.... I would look bitchin.

Especially when the boys dance and the men in the village "make it rain" with lira for them

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

That is exceedingly less interesting than I was imagining.

Also, i have a feeling this is limited to the PNW.  I have a hard time picturing New Englanders doing this.

As a New England lady I support this statement 100%

We are terrified of being nude unless there's a shower or fucking involved.

We in the Northwest love to be naked. I swear to god. Want to know how many of my friends I've seen naked? The answer is all of them. Hey guys, it's December! Let's go find something naked to do!

When I was younger, I used to get naked a lot.  As did my friends.

Now, there's a look of terror in their eyes if my hands even approach my belt buckle.


LMNO
-gravity sucks.

I had a dream last night in which you were naked. Thanks, PeeDee.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

I generally hate things that people tell me I'm "supposed to like".
Nobody down here is telling me I'm "supposed to like" yoga, so I'm OK with it.
I don't think middle aged women in Texas are "supposed to like" anything except clothes that look like the WalMart version of shit Barbara Bush would wear.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

*shudders*
I was just picturing a room full of the local fraus naked.

THANKS A LOT, OBAMA 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I don't like yoga. Yoga is, in fact, one of the two things that as a middle-aged Portland woman I am supposed to like, the other being naked lady parties.

People are always trying to get me to take yoga with them. Luckily, I'm very busy so I have an excuse, and that allows me to get around the part where they look at me like I just grew an arm out of my face when I say that I don't care for yoga.

They always ask me why I don't like it, and I tell them that I'm not very flexible and they always tell me that if I do yoga I will become more flexible. Like being flexible is some sort of BENEFIT, and not a fucking DRAWBACK. I don't WANT to be "flexible". Flexible is for those people who roll their ankles and accidentally dislocate their shoulders trying to carry their purse. My collagen is firm and tight for a reason, and that reason is to make me strong like an ant, so that I can carry bales of straw that weigh as much as I do and hike 6 miles before breakfast. I am not willowy, I am a small tank and I will NOT do yoga, yoga can go fuck itself while I leg motor on over the Tualatin Mountains for a beer and chili on Sunday morning.

What's all this about naked lady parties, now?

It's a thing that women do that is supposed to be enjoyable, where everyone brings their discarded clothes and some wine, then strip down and start trying other people's clothes on while getting drunk.

I loathe them, it's like my own personal hell.

That is exceedingly less interesting than I was imagining.

Also, i have a feeling this is limited to the PNW.  I have a hard time picturing New Englanders doing this.

Uhhh...FILENE'S.

[LMNO]

Thankfully, closed.  But I take your point.

[minuspace]

Cultural appropriation abounds here in Murrica.

Possibly off topic, but cultural appropriation is a concept I struggle with a lot.  On one hand, I totally get it.  Whitey has robbed the world of everything and used it as their own since time immemorial... but on the other hand, I share the same sun as everyone else on this planet.  We stare up at the same moon at night.  When the asteroid hits, we all fly into space together.  How could I possibly not be part of their culture?

[/threadjack]

Ideas spread for a reason

For example penicillin, industrial methods, surgical procedures, transport and traffic flow layout, Electricity supply best practices, refrigeration methods, construction methods and pretty much everything you passively or actively interact with per day, came from or were improved upon by other cultures.

The reason those ideas spread is because they were mostly RIGHT. Yoga is a TOOL not a ceremonial practice. If I wanted the best tool to limber, and reduce stress I would go to Yoga.

There is also a huge difference between appropriating a cultural element that is a ceremony for a specific people, and adapting a cultural element that is just a thing for people in general. For example, non-Jews having a Bar Mitzvah because they think it's "neat" would be appropriation, but making matzoh ball soup is not and it would be silly to say it is.

Great example, point taken, not to equivocate, just to counter: culinary preparation may have previously been more important than it presently seems.  Say, it is because the great unwashed had the audacity to improperly prepare matzoh, thus defiling it, that now we no longer recognize how only the elect may actually produce matzoh that is perfectly pure.  Granted this response is just as unleavened as that other sacrament of mass consumption, however, selecting some elements of a system over others can betray misunderstanding the fundamental importance of that original "way".  Although, clearly, systems do need to change with time, sometimes I forget that I was not always the best at making those decisions due to my persistent Pernicious Teleological Sight Deficiency.