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Discipline

Started by Cramulus, March 27, 2014, 01:06:23 PM

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JamesStrangefellow

Quote from: LuciferX on May 21, 2014, 07:43:43 PM
QuoteI would also say perspective and opinion are two entirely different things to me, but there is a lot of overlap i guess.
One is inherently aware of their opinion but not of their perspective?
Once perspective develops awareness it becomes opinion?

Opinions are vain speculation serving as surrogates to thought: most people don't even develop their own, so awareness plays no part.  The perspective would be in discerning the ground of understanding upon which differing opinions share a more primordial unity.  For all the change and futile exchange of opinions, we have forgotten that once disclosed clearing of similarity.  Over and against these dancing shadows it remains again the UNKNOWN KNOWN.  Always there withdrawing before those things you mistake for thoughts.

lighten up lucifer!!!! jesus christ!
what are you focusing on?
what are you filtering your energy through?
again, i appreciate your whateverthefuckyouwanttocallit. but you ain't the alpha and/or the omega ALONE.


minuspace


Pæs

I caught this thread back when it was posted and meant to come back to it.

Now that I have, it's been all spagged up by vandals!

minuspace

Not a clean-sweep, still, it might be workable again?

xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)

Quote
And that is a microcosm of how power is distributed and maintained. Nobody really holds any power, but what little they have is a tool to reenforce a greater structure of power. Look at Occupy Wall st - there was a public acknowledgment that the bankers are cutthroat bastards who have been systemically screwing us. So what now? Do we lynch the bankers? It would make no difference. The bankers hold no power. They would just be replaced by more bankers who are beholden to the same power structure and would therefore pull the exact same shit. If you talk about changing the banks, the people you're talking to will tell you all the reasons we need banks and the current institutions and hierarchies need to be maintained.

This is a downright diabolical worldview. Of course no one has absolute power in our system, its the most gnarled and complicated clusterfuck in human history. But that doesnt mean that concrete power isnt real, and that you cant make meaningful changes to the system if you have the resources and you play your cards right. Turning power into this omnipresent omnipotent abstraction doesnt do anything but protect real concrete power by getting you to chase abstractions instead.

And really, the idea that power manifests in "every interaction we have" is horseshit. Of course we are all effected by the system, thats because we are all a part of it. Theres no point worrying yourself to death because the system has a certain degree of influence on you, everything you come in contact with has influence on you. All the people that make up your social circle have influence on you, theatens have an influence on you, fucking solar flares have an influence on you. You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.

There will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it. Those people talking about how we really need banks and the current institutions? Punch those motherfuckers in the face. Im not joking. Anyone who thinks that we really really need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.

Life Tip: if you read a book by a frenchman, assume every word is a lie until proven otherwise.

Pæs

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.

:mittens:

Cramulus

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
And really, the idea that power manifests in "every interaction we have" is horseshit. Of course we are all effected by the system, thats because we are all a part of it. Theres no point worrying yourself to death because the system has a certain degree of influence on you, everything you come in contact with has influence on you. All the people that make up your social circle have influence on you, theatens have an influence on you, fucking solar flares have an influence on you. You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.

What Foucault points out is that this contemporary mode of power is actually different from how it was historically distributed. A Sovereign power is not present in every interaction, you can actually hide from it, subvert it, build a little life outside of it. It's a hierarchical form of power - top down. By making the public the input for "why everybody needs discipline" rather than some dude in a castle on a hill, it created a completely different type of power. One that is more gentle, but also more pervasive.


QuoteThere will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it.

with all due respect, fuck that in all caps

There are different modes of power, with largely different effects on the individual. Studying their differences and origins helps us understand why we have things like juries and investment banks.

"don't think about power, it's not going anywhere so just deal with it" is serf talk.

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
Anyone who thinks that we really really need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.

That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
Quote
And that is a microcosm of how power is distributed and maintained. Nobody really holds any power, but what little they have is a tool to reenforce a greater structure of power. Look at Occupy Wall st - there was a public acknowledgment that the bankers are cutthroat bastards who have been systemically screwing us. So what now? Do we lynch the bankers? It would make no difference. The bankers hold no power. They would just be replaced by more bankers who are beholden to the same power structure and would therefore pull the exact same shit. If you talk about changing the banks, the people you're talking to will tell you all the reasons we need banks and the current institutions and hierarchies need to be maintained.

This is a downright diabolical worldview. Of course no one has absolute power in our system, its the most gnarled and complicated clusterfuck in human history. But that doesnt mean that concrete power isnt real, and that you cant make meaningful changes to the system if you have the resources and you play your cards right. Turning power into this omnipresent omnipotent abstraction doesnt do anything but protect real concrete power by getting you to chase abstractions instead.

And really, the idea that power manifests in "every interaction we have" is horseshit. Of course we are all effected by the system, thats because we are all a part of it. Theres no point worrying yourself to death because the system has a certain degree of influence on you, everything you come in contact with has influence on you. All the people that make up your social circle have influence on you, theatens have an influence on you, fucking solar flares have an influence on you. You arent an alien visiting this universe in a hermetically sealed spacesuit made of skin. Youre rolling around in it like a pig, youre breathing it in every second, youre balls deep in this motherfucker.

There will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it. Those people talking about how we really need banks and the current institutions? Punch those motherfuckers in the face. Im not joking. Anyone who thinks that we really really need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.

Life Tip: if you read a book by a frenchman, assume every word is a lie until proven otherwise.

Holy shit, where did you come from and how did you find us? I think I love you Ron Paul.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


P3nT4gR4m

Quote from: Cramulus on July 02, 2014, 01:44:54 PM
That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.

This! We know how power shifts nowadays - hostile takeovers. A business model that the established oligarchy cannot defend against. Buy them up, shut them down, strip their assets, lay off the staff and move on. Aggressive, disruptive business models bombarding the defenceless in a theatre of abstract wealth distribution. Take all the assets, you get the governments and the military thrown in as a job lot.

Open Source is coming. Plutocracy will be annihilated. If we play it right, very little blood will be spilled. All the power, financial, governmental and military is always up for grabs. All you need is a new kind of hand that's better at grabbing.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

If you have a tiny brain it's always easiest to latch onto the least significant point a smarter person said and distort the hell out of it.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)

Quote from: Cramulus on July 02, 2014, 01:44:54 PM

QuoteThere will always be power, and there will always be systems of power that organize people en mass. Thats just what humans do. Dont worry about it. Chillax. Stressing about it is like stressing out over the weather. Sometimes the weather fucks you, but you just do what you can to deal with it, you dont agonize over the fact that weather exists. Dont stress over the system you live in. Deal with it.

with all due respect, fuck that in all caps

There are different modes of power, with largely different effects on the individual. Studying their differences and origins helps us understand why we have things like juries and investment banks.

"don't think about power, it's not going anywhere so just deal with it" is serf talk.


Then what do you call "power is subtle and all pervasive and there is nothing we can do to effect it"?

Quote
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 09:02:12 AM
Anyone who thinks that we really really need investment bankers deserves a guillotine. Currently it is against the law to lob the heads off of idiots, but there will come a time for that. If not now, later.

That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.

This is where this viewpoint becomes pure evil. When I said "dont worry about power" I was wording my point bad. My point is that the system does have a pervasive and subtle effect on us, but everyone lives in a system with similar effects on them. Humans self organize into big systems like this, on pretty much every continent on the planet fuckhuge systems like ours have arised. Zulus, Romans, Aztecs, Imperial Japan, Mongolia, its pretty safe to say that this is human nature. Humans are designed to organize into groups, what Foucalt is doing is drawing a false semantic connection between this natural self organizing tendency and concrete power by giving them the same name. He then proceeds to assume that because you cant get rid of one(which again, is like complaining you cant get rid of the weather. Even if we could destroy the current system completely people would just make another one.) you cant alter the other.

Thats where I call shenanigans. You can alter power, you just have to take a different route than before the French and American Revolutions. Naturally different systems manifest power in different ways. If you cant just kill the assholes in charge to change things then why the fuck did they kill Kennedy and MLK? The difference between this system and the old system is that power just isnt well labeled. It doesnt wear and a crown, and most importantly, there is no one person in charge you can behead. Our system is a monument to Humanities ability to build things so complicated probably no one can understand it. But you can still effect it in meaningful ways, which is what the people in concrete positions of power are doing right now. They dont have absolute control, no one does, even the old kings didnt or they wouldnt have been beheaded, but they can effect things.

Concrete power is real and it can be changed. Focusing on the "subtle and pervasive" aspects of power is a losing life script. Its worrying about things that you probably dont have much power over while lumping in things you can meaningfully change in with them. This is a deadly feedback loop, because youll keep focusing on how "power" manifests in the little interactions you have with people and your trips to the grocery store ect ect and youll see how you cant really meaningfully effect it. Then because youve lumped concrete power under the same general label of "power" youll say "See, theres nothing I can do to change power." And youll have a constant source of feedback reinforcing this worldview where you are powerless. Foucalts whole argument is a sleight of hand and its just plain evil on top of that.

Seriously, dont trust the French.

Cramulus

Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 02, 2014, 04:57:26 PM
Then what do you call "power is subtle and all pervasive and there is nothing we can do to effect it"?


Foucault doesn't say we can't affect it

He says we can't decapitate it

Foucault, by the way, doesn't think power is evil or that it shouldn't be concentrated. It's just a tool. If you're the one its being used against, it's good to understand what exactly we're talking about. Because the way things are right now, the guillotine can't really solve anything. The antisocial behaviors of governments and corporations are generated by a mutually sustained system of rewards and punishments, not by one evil guy collecting taxes for personal profit.

Quote
Quote
That time has passed. The current mode of power cannot be altered via beheadings like a sovereign power could. There will never be another guillotine style revolution in the west, and the reasons for that are buried in the French and American revolutions.

This is where this viewpoint becomes pure evil. When I said "dont worry about power" I was wording my point bad. My point is that the system does have a pervasive and subtle effect on us, but everyone lives in a system with similar effects on them. Humans self organize into big systems like this, on pretty much every continent on the planet fuckhuge systems like ours have arised. Zulus, Romans, Aztecs, Imperial Japan, Mongolia, its pretty safe to say that this is human nature. Humans are designed to organize into groups, what Foucalt is doing is drawing a false semantic connection between this natural self organizing tendency and concrete power by giving them the same name. He then proceeds to assume that because you cant get rid of one(which again, is like complaining you cant get rid of the weather. Even if we could destroy the current system completely people would just make another one.) you cant alter the other.

Saying that the current power balance is just a result of human nature sounds like a cop-out.

The school to prison pipeline
The pay-to-win criminal justice system
The bichromatic spectrum of american politics,

these aren't just ubiquitous structures which naturally arise from "human nature", or the fact that we live in groups, there are specific historical reasons for their existence.

QuoteThats where I call shenanigans. You can alter power, you just have to take a different route than before the French and American Revolutions. Naturally different systems manifest power in different ways. If you cant just kill the assholes in charge to change things then why the fuck did they kill Kennedy and MLK? The difference between this system and the old system is that power just isnt well labeled. It doesnt wear and a crown, and most importantly, there is no one person in charge you can behead. Our system is a monument to Humanities ability to build things so complicated probably no one can understand it. But you can still effect it in meaningful ways, which is what the people in concrete positions of power are doing right now. They dont have absolute control, no one does, even the old kings didnt or they wouldnt have been beheaded, but they can effect things.

I don't think any of that is in disagreement with Foucault

QuoteConcrete power is real and it can be changed. Focusing on the "subtle and pervasive" aspects of power is a losing life script. Its worrying about things that you probably dont have much power over while lumping in things you can meaningfully change in with them. This is a deadly feedback loop, because youll keep focusing on how "power" manifests in the little interactions you have with people and your trips to the grocery store ect ect and youll see how you cant really meaningfully effect it. Then because youve lumped concrete power under the same general label of "power" youll say "See, theres nothing I can do to change power." And youll have a constant source of feedback reinforcing this worldview where you are powerless. Foucalts whole argument is a sleight of hand and its just plain evil on top of that.

Seriously, dont trust the French.

I think we've seen examples in recent years of power shifts, and how that can happen rather organically through a deliberate attention to those subtle and pervasive interactions.

For example - homosexuals experience less oppression now than they did 20 years ago. The shift happened in part due to legislation (concrete power), but to pave the way for that, we had to participate in the consensus. Prejudice had to become uncool, socially, before legislators started to follow suit.

That's why I don't see the current distribution of power as necessarily a bad thing (though clearly it's concentrated in some bad places)- it's probably better than sovereign power. The fact that it changes more slowly and is insulated against revolution is a double edged sword. All those people posting politics on social networks are actually playing a role in broad change.. In olden times, having a low opinion of the Crown was something you'd have to keep quiet for fear of retribution. Sovereign power reacted to challenges as if they were a duel of wills between two entities, and that resulted in hundreds of years of public executions and failed coups - Now public dissent is a recognized and necessary part of the political process, and those little social interactions between groups are part of it too.





xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)

Mostly agree with you here. But I just cant abide the idea that application of hard power cant solve anything. The meme that the people in power cant be forcibly pushed out of power exists precisely to protect the people in power. These same people dont even buy it themselves, hence domestic drones, militarized police ect. This isnt to disparage softer applications of power, such as your example of the homosexual movement, its just you cant get in the mindset where thats the only option on the table ever because there are situations where its just plain useless. No one at JP Morgan is quaking in their $1,000 designer shoes at the Occupy facebook page. Im not saying that we should flay the flesh from the bones of every BOA executive and hang their entrails around the New York Stock exchange like Christmas tinsel. Im just saying there is a special mead hall in Valhalla for anyone that does.

P3nT4gR4m

We don't need to flay flesh from bones. Money = power. Take all their money or (even better) make it obsolete, redistribute the power.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

minuspace

I can take my moderation in moderation, still,
Death's pace, at any rate, does not cary all aloft.