Why has Feminism become a Dirty Word? and Other Misogyny on the Internet.

Started by Pope Pixie Pickle, June 14, 2012, 03:55:58 PM

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Juana

Also, feminism has always been a dirty word. Feminists tend to make men uncomfortable and while they (cis men*) have been successful in making the movement be apologetic about that (we have to be polite and polite = not making them uncomfortable/like they might possibly have to work for the privileges they get when they're born even though the very basis of feminism is fighting that), I think the tide is turning a bit.


*Not accusing all cis men. Like Nig said, this is one of the most egalitarian places I've found on the interbutts.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 08:57:14 PM
Also, feminism has always been a dirty word. Feminists tend to make men uncomfortable and while they (cis men*) have been successful in making the movement be apologetic about that (we have to be polite and polite = not making them uncomfortable/like they might possibly have to work for the privileges they get when they're born even though the very basis of feminism is fighting that), I think the tide is turning a bit.


*Not accusing all cis men. Like Nig said, this is one of the most egalitarian places I've found on the interbutts.

What is "cis"?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Juana

Men who are born in male bodies and women who are born in female bodies. The rest of us are transgender.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:07:12 PM
Men who are born in male bodies and women who are born in female bodies. The rest of us are transgender.

I don't like having a label.

I'm TGRR.  That's the only label or classification I want or need.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Pope Pixie Pickle

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on June 15, 2012, 04:42:34 AM
...but women have the privilege over men of being openly homosexual or bi without threat of violence or social rejection.
No we don't. Bisexual female = heterosexual faking it for male attention (so far as the gay community is concerned). Bisexual or lesbian female = sex object or (too often) a bitch who needs to be fucked by a real man to turn her back.
Which is why I am very, very careful about who I talk to about this/allow to know.
THIS. so much this!
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 08:57:14 PM
Also, feminism has always been a dirty word. Feminists tend to make men uncomfortable and while they (cis men*) have been successful in making the movement be apologetic about that (we have to be polite and polite = not making them uncomfortable/like they might possibly have to work for the privileges they get when they're born even though the very basis of feminism is fighting that), I think the tide is turning a bit.


*Not accusing all cis men. Like Nig said, this is one of the most egalitarian places I've found on the interbutts.

Unlike MRA's and certain corners of Reddit and 4chan.


Juana

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 15, 2012, 09:08:10 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:07:12 PM
Men who are born in male bodies and women who are born in female bodies. The rest of us are transgender.

I don't like having a label.

I'm TGRR.  That's the only label or classification I want or need.
While I generally agree, knowing there was a word was reassuring. I did what felt right anyway, but it was good to know there were other people like me.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:17:30 PM
While I generally agree, knowing there was a word was reassuring. I did what felt right anyway, but it was good to know there were other people like me.

TGG seemed to need a word at first.  Now she's just "I DO WHAT I WANT".  Which is as it should be.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Juana

Which I do, and always have done. Like I said, it was good to know. Finding something reassuring =/= needing it.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:26:09 PM
Which I do, and always have done. Like I said, it was good to know. Finding something reassuring =/= needing it.

Oh, I know.

MY problem is that - not only is there apparently a word for my orientation, which irks me - but there are in fact other people on my planet that makes all this terminology necessary.  If everyone else was flung off into space, things would be much nicer.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Johnny

Quote from: Pixie on June 15, 2012, 11:13:52 AM

Men showing what ate socially considered feminine traits are still ridiculed, and whereas being a tomboy is considered not that abberant, boys doing things "like a girl" are still ridiculed by a good portion of western society.


Could you expand?

I dont even know if its related to, but i feel it does in a way, ive learned of some feminists that essentialize what a woman is (essentialization is a type of typology, characterization, universalization or cliche-ing), and from that angle defend women.

The problem with that is that it presumes that women are a certain way, and with that view theres no deconstruction or critique to what a woman is.

Or maybe that's just the essencialization realized by some males themselves?
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

The Johnny


One of the infightings in history of feminism i learned, was that between white middle-high class women that spoke of gender prejudice, and that caused certain resentment from lower class or from other races women, that thought of their adressing of issues as incomplete, or from a whole different set of priorities as themselves.

Its a whole set of different problems for someone living as a trophy wife than say, living in a ghetto or being an immigrant.

Im not sure how they came around it, or how it was resolved, but i think it had to do with making a common front in the social fight, while in the theoretical part being more specialized.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Juana

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on June 15, 2012, 09:32:54 PM
Quote from: Pixie on June 15, 2012, 11:13:52 AM

Men showing what ate socially considered feminine traits are still ridiculed, and whereas being a tomboy is considered not that abberant, boys doing things "like a girl" are still ridiculed by a good portion of western society.


Could you expand?
Gender roles are a liiiittle bit more fluid for women than they used to be (eg, the tom boy trope is well loved and there are many a scrappy girl in media who is the hero or the side kick, and "she's not like the other girls" is a compliment, etc.) but not so for men. This is because things that are feminine are lesser because women are still "weak" (making the only way a woman can be less weak is for her to be less feminine - you see this, too, in feminist movement, sadly). Here's an excellent video on femmephobia, which is what that is.


Quote from: Joh'Nyx on June 15, 2012, 09:32:54 PMI dont even know if its related to, but i feel it does in a way, ive learned of some feminists that essentialize what a woman is (essentialization is a type of typology, characterization, universalization or cliche-ing), and from that angle defend women.

The problem with that is that it presumes that women are a certain way, and with that view theres no deconstruction or critique to what a woman is.

Or maybe that's just the essencialization realized by some males themselves?
I tend to be involved with and more aware of third wave feminism, which argues against that very fundamentally (although theory and practice are not always the same), so I don't know.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 15, 2012, 09:28:33 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:26:09 PM
Which I do, and always have done. Like I said, it was good to know. Finding something reassuring =/= needing it.

Oh, I know.

MY problem is that - not only is there apparently a word for my orientation, which irks me - but there are in fact other people on my planet that makes all this terminology necessary.  If everyone else was flung off into space, things would be much nicer.
:lulz: Ok, that I can see.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

The Good Reverend Roger

I still use "like a girl", because it's fun when dealing with people (guys) who are bothered or insulted by that sort of thing.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Johnny

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:52:06 PM

Gender roles are a liiiittle bit more fluid for women than they used to be (eg, the tom boy trope is well loved and there are many a scrappy girl in media who is the hero or the side kick, and "she's not like the other girls" is a compliment, etc.) but not so for men. This is because things that are feminine are lesser because women are still "weak" (making the only way a woman can be less weak is for her to be less feminine - you see this, too, in feminist movement, sadly). Here's an excellent video on femmephobia, which is what that is.

Oh yeah, regarding the video, in occasions just because im not interested in a given woman that makes approaches towards me, then im a fag, or because im tall, have a light build and have certain refinement that contrasts to the Mexican Macho stereotype, then im a lesser being (being gay IS in this culture being less, and the ties between misogyny and gay-hating seem to be related to this said femmephobia too)


Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
I tend to be involved with and more aware of third wave feminism, which argues against that very fundamentally (although theory and practice are not always the same), so I don't know.

Ok, that also relates to my other post regarding the different kinds of feminists and their infighting... yeah, i cant say im too sharp with feminist history, and that third wave movement adressess it.

Although i still think specialized theorization regarding certain minorities is good (and that it is done by members that belong to those minorities, so they can adress important issues that others might turn a blind eye to, because of not experiencing it in their "own shoes")
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Juana

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on June 15, 2012, 10:10:35 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:52:06 PM

Gender roles are a liiiittle bit more fluid for women than they used to be (eg, the tom boy trope is well loved and there are many a scrappy girl in media who is the hero or the side kick, and "she's not like the other girls" is a compliment, etc.) but not so for men. This is because things that are feminine are lesser because women are still "weak" (making the only way a woman can be less weak is for her to be less feminine - you see this, too, in feminist movement, sadly). Here's an excellent video on femmephobia, which is what that is.

Oh yeah, regarding the video, in occasions just because im not interested in a given woman that makes approaches towards me, then im a fag, or because im tall, have a light build and have certain refinement that contrasts to the Mexican Macho stereotype, then im a lesser being (being gay IS in this culture being less, and the ties between misogyny and gay-hating seem to be related to this said femmephobia too)
Yeah. It's one of those things that hits us all, in one way or another.


Quote from: Joh'Nyx on June 15, 2012, 10:10:35 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on June 15, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
I tend to be involved with and more aware of third wave feminism, which argues against that very fundamentally (although theory and practice are not always the same), so I don't know.

Ok, that also relates to my other post regarding the different kinds of feminists and their infighting... yeah, i cant say im too sharp with feminist history, and that third wave movement adressess it.

Although i still think specialized theorization regarding certain minorities is good (and that it is done by members that belong to those minorities, so they can adress important issues that others might turn a blind eye to, because of not experiencing it in their "own shoes")
I missed that post, somehow. And yes it does.

And TWF doesn't negate that. You'll find a lot of overlap, ime, both as people who are TWF and TWF who aren't a gender, romantic, or sexual minority (GRSM) but are allies.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."