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Messages - LMNO

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24946
Aneristic Illusions / Re: Random News Stories
« on: July 18, 2008, 01:39:37 pm »
I wonder... is it a crime to book a flight in the US with the express intent of comitting otherwise legal acts?


Probably not.  My extent of the law about this is limited to Law and Order: SVU, but I do recall some dialogue about:

STABLER:  "Those scumbags can just get away with it?"

MCCOY: "Yes.  But they won't escape the law forever."

(15 minutes later, they're all prosecuted for mail fraud, or something.)

24947
Or Kill Me / Re: Why So Serious?
« on: July 18, 2008, 01:21:44 pm »
Also, to keep this thread on track...

:mittens:


In addition to Cram's questions, I was wondering what you thought about the long-term effects of this "multiplicity of identities."

Do you think a strong sense of purpose, or failing that—a strong sense of self—is necessary for someone to thrive as a trickster? If you look at Joey Skaggs, the Yes Men, and the Billboard Liberation Front, there is a definite subtext of seriousness surrounding their pranks. It seems to me that for most stunts to be successful, the trickster needs to spend some time on cold, sober calculations and practicalities. Earning one's slack...

You suggested some answers to these questions in the OP, but I was hoping you would expand on them a bit.

I think there is a need for some sort of drive, certainly.  But I think that drive exists far lower than the various identities that a trickster takes on in their various pursuits.

I'll illustrate with an example.  This rant actually came to me two weeks ago today.  I had a job interview and jobseekers allowance (unenployment benefits) interview on the same day, several hours apart, in a town about 40 miles from where I live.  Now, its a nice town, where I was, so after attending my jobseekers interview in the morning (where I projected a proffesional, eager to work and helpful air, in the hope some sympathy for my position might increase my payments), I had another 6 hours before my interview was due to start.

So I went to the park for a while.  And, naturally, I got bored fairly fast.  So I started mindfucking the public.  I roped several people into helping me find my lost dog.  I convinced an assistant manager at a store that he was heir to a 19th century collection of dog rugs, of absolutely no value whatsoever, that had been bequeathed to him upon the death of an eccentric and distant relative (I was wearing a suit and carrying plenty of documentation, it was easy).  I managed to recruit several people to hand out flyers saying "want cheaper fuel?  www.meatspin.com" that I had knocking about in my briefcase.

They were all roles, but I couldn't shake the impression they were as real as any other personality I projected at any given moment.  My meek, vaugely helpful and inoffensive personality at the job centre certainly wasn't my usual personality, but it incorporated elements from it, while supressing others.  Equally, my default personality - the one I have on here and offline, supresses other parts of my personality that may come to the fore in various situations - how I can be intensely logical, focused and ruthless, for example.  I certainly prefer certain masks, such as the one I currently use, but its all a matter of holding back certain drives and traits - enforcing order on the chaos that is the true human spectrum of expression.

I think a drive is part of that chaos, the churning seas of the subconscious.  What that drive may be, I don't know.  I suspect that various aspects of the personality interpret it in different ways, which is why the Trickster has problems forming long term and meaningful goals.  Most people rely on continual supression of aspects of their personality, they have a single, or a couple of masks at best.  However, someone who practices so many roles, who thinks in so many different ways, is exposed to so many more interpretations of the drive itself.  Understanding, and chaos, result.

I hope that's the sort of answer you were looking for.

You must really piss off buddhists.  They work all this time to strip the masks from reality, and here you are, an all your borderline sociopathic glory, switching masks as quickly as Anonymous at a Guy Faulks festival.

But you know what? I'm with you.  If we want to move within the world, we need to be adept at which masks to choose from.  Otherwise, we might as well go sit in a monastary for the rest of our lives.

24948
Or Kill Me / Re: Why So Serious?
« on: July 18, 2008, 01:15:39 pm »

 :mittens:

Do you have any thoughts on the kokopelli archetype?  As trickster I mean?   :)

Profoundly misunderstood by pretty much every white guy who's ever written about him.


24949
Or Kill Me / Re: Confessions of a Swamp Rat #1
« on: July 18, 2008, 01:01:47 pm »
So that's the way it is?

:spag:


All things are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense...


Sing along if you know the words, spag.

24950
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Possible New Metaphor
« on: July 17, 2008, 07:42:29 pm »
And some people say Discordians do nothing but argue.

24951
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Possible New Metaphor
« on: July 17, 2008, 07:19:43 pm »
Quote from: Rat
If we threw off ALL controls, including physiology, we would die.

IF the choice is between Freedom with some restrictions and being dead...


...Aaaaaand we have arrived on the same page from different directions, using different language.

24952
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Possible New Metaphor
« on: July 17, 2008, 05:10:06 pm »
Don't forget, I'm not the one claiming you can escape, Rat is.

I do however put claims in Reconstruction.

Also, Rat:

You believe your BIP looks like this:



I believe my BIP looks like this:



To me in this metaphor, Malkuth is the time in your life when you don't even know you're in prison.  I mean, look at all those bars!


24953
Quote from: tripzip
the point is, the shrapnel/pooltable model IMO lacks this complexity. it's just balls on an infinite bumpy pooltable. everything in this model just screams at me: what's the point? where are you going with this? things are infinitely more complex than this! what do you expect to be able to model with this?

Well, I suppose it wasn't to map the complexity of a human's life.

I suppose it was to capture another idea of randomness: Rather than think of your life as a linear, straightforward narrative, random ideas (shrapnel) send you in random directions (pool ball collisions) that lead you to encounter new memes (bumps, dips), which send you off in new random directions.

well, yeah, but isn't that obvious to everybody? is it new? or does it just sound like old hat because i've been actively observing my own thoughts for so long now?

But wasn't the BIP obvious, too?

Quote
Quote
Incidentally, don't you think that if you had a table with random bumps, and pool balls flying around randomly, that a single cue ball rolled across the table would have an extremely complex and unpredictable path?

complex, yeah kinda, but not enough :)

what it lacks is a self-feedback effect.

basically, you can make the table arbitrarily bumpy or add an arbitrary amount of pool balls going off everywhere, and the cue ball's trajectory will become more and more complex, but it will not even begin to approach the chaotic complexity of feedback systems. and that just irks me.

But if we tie this into the "why are humans are predicatble?" thread, we can maybe see that a lot of the chaotic complexity you miss actually gets stripped out of the process.

I mean, if all that chaos was there, there would be a tendency towards more differences, not more conformity, right?

24954
Quote from: tripzip
the point is, the shrapnel/pooltable model IMO lacks this complexity. it's just balls on an infinite bumpy pooltable. everything in this model just screams at me: what's the point? where are you going with this? things are infinitely more complex than this! what do you expect to be able to model with this?

Well, I suppose it wasn't to map the complexity of a human's life.

I suppose it was to capture another idea of randomness: Rather than think of your life as a linear, straightforward narrative, random ideas (shrapnel) send you in random directions (pool ball collisions) that lead you to encounter new memes (bumps, dips), which send you off in new random directions.

Or something.  Or maybe I just like the image.

Incidentally, don't you think that if you had a table with random bumps, and pool balls flying around randomly, that a single cue ball rolled across the table would have an extremely complex and unpredictable path?

24955
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Vs. Organized Religion
« on: July 17, 2008, 03:48:22 pm »
Eventually, yes.



But it started out just with mystics.  I figured out that they were all trying to describe the same thing, but falling short, and then codifying their failed attempts in some sort of structure that didn't hold up to scrutiny.  Then they get pissed when you point out the stupid stuff they hold as True.

24956
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: A thought on a few core ideas.
« on: July 17, 2008, 03:43:31 pm »
It also seems that while the choices narrow, the perception of choice expands.

A grocery isle with 20 brands of cereal.  Ingredients: corn, sugar.

Our choices today consist of cosmetic things.  We think we are different because my T-shirt says Adidas, and yours says Nike.

Meanwhile, the fundamental choices we can make have become limited through various social, political, and economic means.


24957
Think for Yourself, Schmuck! / Re: Possible New Metaphor
« on: July 17, 2008, 03:21:03 pm »
I dunno about Spoon, but I do know that Rat's got a good notion on "neuroplasticity".


If we consider that the BIP is made up of conditioning, experience, and bias (among other things), then re-conditioning, new experiences, and new biases will change the BIP.

Change?  Maybe not so much... Refine the definition of other walls/bars?... yeah, probably.
I like the neuroplasticity thing too though.

If you take a Jehova's Witness (like Rat used to be), and look at his cell then, and then you send that JW though process of drugs, sex, and chaos magik (like Rat went through), and you look at his cell now, you will find out it has Changed pretty much completely.  Except for his Scars®.

LMNO
-metaphor mixer.




Also, to Rat:

I don't know if I've said this yet, but one of the reasons I like the "no escape" form is because of the old addage that it's not the destination, it's the journey.  Or as Uncle Al said, "A true initiation never ends."  Because progress comes from escaping.  If we posit an Escape, then we posit an Conclusion.  Which will lead Some People to conclude that they Made It Out, and don't have to worry about it anymore.

Which is very, very stupid.  And I'm trying to exclude as many obviously stupid loopholes in my thinking as possible.

But again, I see your point, so...  I'll STFU.

24958
I'm with Val on this, kind of.

Mostly because I look at it in this case as a "scar" being a mostly-permanent Change that happens to your body.  It doesn't translate too well into the actual world because IRL, the reaction to any shrapnel would be Pain, where as in the metaphor, shrapnel could cause great Joy, as well (I have a jagged, twisted Scar® running up most of my body thanks to Musical Shrapnel®).

To Khara:

When I relate Shrapnel to Ideas, I want to take with me the concept that there are certain Ideas I want to keep, and certain Ideas I want to leave behind.

If Idea = Shrapnel, then I want to keep some shrapnel inside me, and I want to pull some out.

So, the idea of Scars is that even if I leave some Idea behind, the very act of encountering the Idea has changed me.

24959
Or Kill Me / Re: "Requiem for a Dream"
« on: July 17, 2008, 02:41:44 pm »
Dear Wade,

In this life, bad shit happens to people.

Thus endeth the moral lesson for the day.

Now, go shoot yourself.

24960
Or Kill Me / Re: The Circular Firing Squad
« on: July 17, 2008, 02:38:51 pm »
It's interesting to observe the Conservatives these days, especially the Evangelical Xtians and the Libertarians who are speaking out against the Bush administration.  They all huddled under the GOP tent, keeping their mouths shut in the hopes that if the Republicans got into power, they'd toss an ideological bone in their direction.

And now they (or at least the ones that are paying attention) are pissed.

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