Happy now?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Not a marine biologist, just keep very strange company.

Your buddy really wants to fuck a dolphin? 

You know he's gonna be killed, right?

[hunter s.durden]

Watch those sudden thrusts...

I know what you mean though. People wonder why I know about http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Watch those sudden thrusts...

I know what you mean though. People wonder why I know about http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/

NO CAT FUCKING!  GODDAMMIT!

[Hangero]

He's done a lot of research.
When he was a kid, he had a pet dolphin (kind of) it would swim up to his dock, and I guess he would pet it and talk to it.

I think he was molested.

[hunter s.durden]

Maybe your buddy can beat off until he finds a "sea partner."
Animals that look like a genocidal madman... up his alley?

[hunter s.durden]

Not Hangero's buddy.... TGRR's buddy, Bhode.

[Cain]

I have a friend who is a marine biologist, but is mostly dealing with fish, not dolphins.  These have all been forwaded.

[B_M_W]

Okay, as a species, our only goal should be to survive.  The only way to ensure that is to not fuck up the planet.  Basic biology.

Thats not biology, thats ecology.

Ecology is a biological science.

[B_M_W]

My biggest problem is with the idea that humanity is somehow more important than the rest of the world, that we have the right to fuck stuff up, simply because the rest of the organisms on the planet haven't revolted yet.  People are animals.  We are no more special than any other organism.  We have no more right to live than anything else, yet our predominant cultures are taking whatever steps possible to eliminate Natural Selection from the equation because other people dying "Feels bad." 

"Oooh, You can't say the word Retarded because it's insensitive!  What if someone's child has a genetic disorder?"  Then they should die, and the parent shouldn't have any more kids.  That's the way it works in the wild, and it's good for the species.  It ensures that only the most adapted survive, but these days everyone gets to survive, simply by virtue of being born.  Healthcare is one of the biggest things people who support civilization point to.  They say, "What if you broke your leg, you'd want to get it fixed right?  What if you were a diabetic?  Good luck getting insulin in the middle of the rainforest!"  I say, If I was one of the people with diabetes, I should die.  Tough titties.  That's the way it should go.  But NooooOoo, we can't have people getting their Feelings hurt!  Natural Selection worked on this planet since the beginning of life, yet in the last ten thousand years we have managed to fuck it up beyond all repair.

Human Comfort has come to replace the system that got us here.  Only the individuals who were more adapted to survival got to procreate, but these days anybody with a sperm or egg can pop out a little bastard of their own, to the detriment of the species as a whole.  The little bugger gets taken care of for a couple of months, and then it's off to daycare where they learn how to interact with other human beings from all the other little brats whose parents don't love them as much as they love a paycheck.  Once they survive daycare they get to spend the majority of the next thirteen years being forced to obey those in "Authority" and learning stuff they'll never use, but being prepared for getting exploited for the rest of their lives.  But John Taylor Gatto better enunciates the failings of the Education system to produce humans that can think critically, and it's successes in producing good little worker drones that keep the Machine^tm going.

Human Comfort is enhanced by dishwashers, clothes washers and driers, automobiles, the entertainment industry, and a billion other devices that make up "Civilization."  What we actually need to survive is food, water, air and shelter, but all of those things we have for comfort contribute to the ruination of our food, water, and air.  We are causing our own demise through our desire for comfort and ease.  How stupid is it to demolish the systems in place that keep us alive, just so we can watch American Idol and wear Designer Clothes?  Laziness and greed For Teh Lose.

I have a problem with the depth of greed in our culture that has given rise to and been enhanced by Advertising.  "Somebody else has more stuff than me, so I want it too, cause then I'll be TRULY happy!"  Bullshit.  More Dockers in your closet doesn't make you a happier or better person.

What I'd like to know is how the Hopi, !Kung, hell even the Iroquois and Aztecs are anywhere near as bad as the Roman Catholic Church, DuPont Chemicals, and the US Government.

My characterization of individuals in most tribes - "I am an integral part of my environment, symbiotic with the plants, animals, and insects that live around me.  I care about the relationships I have with others of my tribe, and my actions benefit all.  I have all that I need for survival."

My characterization of individuals in most "successful cultures" - "Go to work doing a job that I hate, working for bosses I hate for the majority of my life, in order to buy more shit that I don't really need and that won't make me happier, maybe pop out a couple of kids who will grow up to pay for my stupidity, greed, and laziness, by being just as miserable as I am, only with a lot fewer freedoms, quality relationships, arable land, drinkable water, and other living breathing organisms."

How much time during the week do you spend working, getting ready for work, traveling to or from work, and thinking about work?  How much time during the week do you spend improving yourself, your relationships, and preparing your children to be decent human beings?  Corporations control the bulk of individual's lives directly, and the rest of their lives through their control of the government.  When's the last time you ever heard of a Lobbying Group for the good of the people?

What it boils down to is this:  I see the Machine^tm as a function of greed and powerlust and people not giving a shit about the consequences of their actions beyond turning a profit, which is mostly found when there is a system of hierarchy, where someone can say "I'm better than you because I make more money, and have more power" because money is a construct of people, and power is only in people's minds.  As long as you can convince people that money matters and they have to obey you (through Religion, etc) then you can "win" at a game I don't want to play.  The answer is to get rid of hierarchy, and to look at societies that function without it, or money.

Human Civilization is quickly failing as evolutionarily viable option, and wiping itself off the face of the planet with every ton of garbage buried in a landfill and every factory chugging pollutants into the air.  I just think it's a shame that we're ruining the planet for everything/everyone else who doesn't want to live this way.  I also think it's a shame that it might take a few hundred years for the reality of our failure to catch up with blissninny dreamland we get piped into every home through the Magic Of TV.

I find it difficult to ignore the stupidity of those people completely happy to skip and sing on the way down the gullet of a Dragon of our own making, yet I don't see any other options than to walk right next to them.  But I'll be damned if I'll be happy about it.

It was also an invitation to eliminate my existence from the face of the planet.  I do not fear death.  Ass

A reiteration:

When you want to talk about real enviromental ethics, and not this Fisher Price: My First Treehugging, then come find me. Until then, I'll be laughing at you. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

My biggest problem is with the idea that humanity is somehow more important than the rest of the world, that we have the right to fuck stuff up, simply because the rest of the organisms on the planet haven't revolted yet.  People are animals.  We are no more special than any other organism.  We have no more right to live than anything else, yet our predominant cultures are taking whatever steps possible to eliminate Natural Selection from the equation because other people dying "Feels bad." 

"Oooh, You can't say the word Retarded because it's insensitive!  What if someone's child has a genetic disorder?"  Then they should die, and the parent shouldn't have any more kids.  That's the way it works in the wild, and it's good for the species.  It ensures that only the most adapted survive, but these days everyone gets to survive, simply by virtue of being born.  Healthcare is one of the biggest things people who support civilization point to.  They say, "What if you broke your leg, you'd want to get it fixed right?  What if you were a diabetic?  Good luck getting insulin in the middle of the rainforest!"  I say, If I was one of the people with diabetes, I should die.  Tough titties.  That's the way it should go.  But NooooOoo, we can't have people getting their Feelings hurt!  Natural Selection worked on this planet since the beginning of life, yet in the last ten thousand years we have managed to fuck it up beyond all repair.

Human Comfort has come to replace the system that got us here.  Only the individuals who were more adapted to survival got to procreate, but these days anybody with a sperm or egg can pop out a little bastard of their own, to the detriment of the species as a whole.  The little bugger gets taken care of for a couple of months, and then it's off to daycare where they learn how to interact with other human beings from all the other little brats whose parents don't love them as much as they love a paycheck.  Once they survive daycare they get to spend the majority of the next thirteen years being forced to obey those in "Authority" and learning stuff they'll never use, but being prepared for getting exploited for the rest of their lives.  But John Taylor Gatto better enunciates the failings of the Education system to produce humans that can think critically, and it's successes in producing good little worker drones that keep the Machine^tm going.

Human Comfort is enhanced by dishwashers, clothes washers and driers, automobiles, the entertainment industry, and a billion other devices that make up "Civilization."  What we actually need to survive is food, water, air and shelter, but all of those things we have for comfort contribute to the ruination of our food, water, and air.  We are causing our own demise through our desire for comfort and ease.  How stupid is it to demolish the systems in place that keep us alive, just so we can watch American Idol and wear Designer Clothes?  Laziness and greed For Teh Lose.

I have a problem with the depth of greed in our culture that has given rise to and been enhanced by Advertising.  "Somebody else has more stuff than me, so I want it too, cause then I'll be TRULY happy!"  Bullshit.  More Dockers in your closet doesn't make you a happier or better person.

What I'd like to know is how the Hopi, !Kung, hell even the Iroquois and Aztecs are anywhere near as bad as the Roman Catholic Church, DuPont Chemicals, and the US Government.

My characterization of individuals in most tribes - "I am an integral part of my environment, symbiotic with the plants, animals, and insects that live around me.  I care about the relationships I have with others of my tribe, and my actions benefit all.  I have all that I need for survival."

My characterization of individuals in most "successful cultures" - "Go to work doing a job that I hate, working for bosses I hate for the majority of my life, in order to buy more shit that I don't really need and that won't make me happier, maybe pop out a couple of kids who will grow up to pay for my stupidity, greed, and laziness, by being just as miserable as I am, only with a lot fewer freedoms, quality relationships, arable land, drinkable water, and other living breathing organisms."

How much time during the week do you spend working, getting ready for work, traveling to or from work, and thinking about work?  How much time during the week do you spend improving yourself, your relationships, and preparing your children to be decent human beings?  Corporations control the bulk of individual's lives directly, and the rest of their lives through their control of the government.  When's the last time you ever heard of a Lobbying Group for the good of the people?

What it boils down to is this:  I see the Machine^tm as a function of greed and powerlust and people not giving a shit about the consequences of their actions beyond turning a profit, which is mostly found when there is a system of hierarchy, where someone can say "I'm better than you because I make more money, and have more power" because money is a construct of people, and power is only in people's minds.  As long as you can convince people that money matters and they have to obey you (through Religion, etc) then you can "win" at a game I don't want to play.  The answer is to get rid of hierarchy, and to look at societies that function without it, or money.

Human Civilization is quickly failing as evolutionarily viable option, and wiping itself off the face of the planet with every ton of garbage buried in a landfill and every factory chugging pollutants into the air.  I just think it's a shame that we're ruining the planet for everything/everyone else who doesn't want to live this way.  I also think it's a shame that it might take a few hundred years for the reality of our failure to catch up with blissninny dreamland we get piped into every home through the Magic Of TV.

I find it difficult to ignore the stupidity of those people completely happy to skip and sing on the way down the gullet of a Dragon of our own making, yet I don't see any other options than to walk right next to them.  But I'll be damned if I'll be happy about it.

It was also an invitation to eliminate my existence from the face of the planet.  I do not fear death.  Ass

A reiteration:

When you want to talk about real enviromental ethics, and not this Fisher Price: My First Treehugging, then come find me. Until then, I'll be laughing at you. 

Damn.  BMW is in the house.

[Hangero]

BS sounds like he just finished the book "Ishamael", or maybe its dreadful sequels.
God that book was terrible in retrospect.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

BS sounds like he just finished the book "Ishamael", or maybe its dreadful sequels.
God that book was terrible in retrospect.

Ishmael wasn't that bad.

It didn't advocate genocide.

But I am very sorry to hear it had sequels.

[B_M_W]

BS sounds like he just finished the book "Ishamael", or maybe its dreadful sequels.
God that book was terrible in retrospect.

Ishmael wasn't that bad.

It didn't advocate genocide.

But I am very sorry to hear it had sequels.

Yeah, I actually liked Ishmael. Probably has woken a couple people up, here and there.

And sequels are almost always crap if the original is okay.

[B_M_W]

My biggest problem is with the idea that humanity is somehow more important than the rest of the world, that we have the right to fuck stuff up, simply because the rest of the organisms on the planet haven't revolted yet.  People are animals.  We are no more special than any other organism.  We have no more right to live than anything else, yet our predominant cultures are taking whatever steps possible to eliminate Natural Selection from the equation because other people dying "Feels bad." 

"Oooh, You can't say the word Retarded because it's insensitive!  What if someone's child has a genetic disorder?"  Then they should die, and the parent shouldn't have any more kids.  That's the way it works in the wild, and it's good for the species.  It ensures that only the most adapted survive, but these days everyone gets to survive, simply by virtue of being born.  Healthcare is one of the biggest things people who support civilization point to.  They say, "What if you broke your leg, you'd want to get it fixed right?  What if you were a diabetic?  Good luck getting insulin in the middle of the rainforest!"  I say, If I was one of the people with diabetes, I should die.  Tough titties.  That's the way it should go.  But NooooOoo, we can't have people getting their Feelings hurt!  Natural Selection worked on this planet since the beginning of life, yet in the last ten thousand years we have managed to fuck it up beyond all repair.

Human Comfort has come to replace the system that got us here.  Only the individuals who were more adapted to survival got to procreate, but these days anybody with a sperm or egg can pop out a little bastard of their own, to the detriment of the species as a whole.  The little bugger gets taken care of for a couple of months, and then it's off to daycare where they learn how to interact with other human beings from all the other little brats whose parents don't love them as much as they love a paycheck.  Once they survive daycare they get to spend the majority of the next thirteen years being forced to obey those in "Authority" and learning stuff they'll never use, but being prepared for getting exploited for the rest of their lives.  But John Taylor Gatto better enunciates the failings of the Education system to produce humans that can think critically, and it's successes in producing good little worker drones that keep the Machine^tm going.

Human Comfort is enhanced by dishwashers, clothes washers and driers, automobiles, the entertainment industry, and a billion other devices that make up "Civilization."  What we actually need to survive is food, water, air and shelter, but all of those things we have for comfort contribute to the ruination of our food, water, and air.  We are causing our own demise through our desire for comfort and ease.  How stupid is it to demolish the systems in place that keep us alive, just so we can watch American Idol and wear Designer Clothes?  Laziness and greed For Teh Lose.

I have a problem with the depth of greed in our culture that has given rise to and been enhanced by Advertising.  "Somebody else has more stuff than me, so I want it too, cause then I'll be TRULY happy!"  Bullshit.  More Dockers in your closet doesn't make you a happier or better person.

What I'd like to know is how the Hopi, !Kung, hell even the Iroquois and Aztecs are anywhere near as bad as the Roman Catholic Church, DuPont Chemicals, and the US Government.

My characterization of individuals in most tribes - "I am an integral part of my environment, symbiotic with the plants, animals, and insects that live around me.  I care about the relationships I have with others of my tribe, and my actions benefit all.  I have all that I need for survival."

My characterization of individuals in most "successful cultures" - "Go to work doing a job that I hate, working for bosses I hate for the majority of my life, in order to buy more shit that I don't really need and that won't make me happier, maybe pop out a couple of kids who will grow up to pay for my stupidity, greed, and laziness, by being just as miserable as I am, only with a lot fewer freedoms, quality relationships, arable land, drinkable water, and other living breathing organisms."

How much time during the week do you spend working, getting ready for work, traveling to or from work, and thinking about work?  How much time during the week do you spend improving yourself, your relationships, and preparing your children to be decent human beings?  Corporations control the bulk of individual's lives directly, and the rest of their lives through their control of the government.  When's the last time you ever heard of a Lobbying Group for the good of the people?

What it boils down to is this:  I see the Machine^tm as a function of greed and powerlust and people not giving a shit about the consequences of their actions beyond turning a profit, which is mostly found when there is a system of hierarchy, where someone can say "I'm better than you because I make more money, and have more power" because money is a construct of people, and power is only in people's minds.  As long as you can convince people that money matters and they have to obey you (through Religion, etc) then you can "win" at a game I don't want to play.  The answer is to get rid of hierarchy, and to look at societies that function without it, or money.

Human Civilization is quickly failing as evolutionarily viable option, and wiping itself off the face of the planet with every ton of garbage buried in a landfill and every factory chugging pollutants into the air.  I just think it's a shame that we're ruining the planet for everything/everyone else who doesn't want to live this way.  I also think it's a shame that it might take a few hundred years for the reality of our failure to catch up with blissninny dreamland we get piped into every home through the Magic Of TV.

I find it difficult to ignore the stupidity of those people completely happy to skip and sing on the way down the gullet of a Dragon of our own making, yet I don't see any other options than to walk right next to them.  But I'll be damned if I'll be happy about it.

It was also an invitation to eliminate my existence from the face of the planet.  I do not fear death.  Ass

A reiteration:

When you want to talk about real enviromental ethics, and not this Fisher Price: My First Treehugging, then come find me. Until then, I'll be laughing at you. 

Damn.  BMW is in the house.

I didn't spend a semester learning about the stuff to have people butcher it in front of me and not say anything. Frankly, even in the minds of the most radical enviromental ethicists, if you can't extent your moral community to other humans, than there is no way you can extend it further to other species. Peter Singer, a utilitarian, Paul Taylor, a Biocentrist, Aldo Leopold and Holmes Rolston (Holocentrists) all work under the concept of extending their moral community, which can only occur if include other humans. That doesn't mean you have to LIKE other humans, but it does mean you take them into consideration when making moral decisions.

But Bhode obviously knows nothing of this. Hes making genocidal decisions, which are likened onto the Earth Liberation Front, the modern version of NAZIism.

[Hangero]

Well it just stops short of it.
It was what sent me into finding out what primitivism was.

The book overglorifys the lives of "uncivilized" people and tries to assert that social "progress" as we think of it, is fundamentally impossible.

It probably did a lot to wake me up though, I was pretty young when I read it.
I stand by it that the sequels are god awful though.
Maybe they sullied my memory of the original...